Are brushed motors dead?

[Lost]

It seems all the talk these days are about brushless motors and I don't see much about brushed. With bl motors costing as little as upper range brushed motors and still being more powerful, longer-lasting, and maintenance-free, is there still practical use for them? I see brushless being more expensive in the short term as it's the new esc that's the big money sink, but with the hassle of maintaining brushed stuff (and with a sub-par esc the rc18t has) won't bl be the better choice?

[mguebert]

Brushed motors are not dead, YET. But as the brushless systems become more available and there is more choice available on the market they will become more the norm. Brushless motors have certainly made electric racing more fun than ever.

[Jayboy]

i know for one, i would take a brushless over a brushed any day. But prices is the main factor separating the two. If i had the money, i wouldnt hesitate in getting a brushless motor, but i just dont. I really like my 13x3 brushed anyway!

[pinolelst]

Last brushed motor and esc I bought (D5 10 turn and Novak GTX) I paid just about what a mamba max system cost if not a little more so brushless is no longer more expensive in my eyes.Brushed gets even more expensive once you factor in brushes and comm cuts...

Steve

[B4 Stealth]

I don't think brushless will be completely dead for a while, I know alot of racers at my track that don't like BL simply for the feel, they don't like all that torque.
But by the time you factor in ALL the costs Brushless is Cheaper even short term. (for racers)

High end speedo
GTX- $150

High end racing motor
Checkpoint 12X1 - $70

Quality Lathe
C&M/Team Cobra Pro Comm Lathew/Power Base - $140

Self Sustaining Brushed Set Up - $360

High end BL Set up
NOVAK GTB 6.5R - $250

So BL is cheaper for racers.

Bashers who don't cut their own comms or don't need top of the line equipment it is still a little more expensive in short term but still cheaper in long term (unless you factor in sheared Idlers and broken diffs LOL)

[Grizzbob]

Right, brushed motors aren't dead yet, but it's only a matter of time, & part of that will depend on what the racing organizations do about the newer brushless motors coming out(like Novak's 13.5 for example, which is VERY close in performance to a ROAR-legal stock brushed motor). Once they allow us to use them in pretty much any class of racing, then I think that'll be the end of brushed motors, because those who develop them will use more & more of their R & D resources on brushless motors instead of brushed....... :cool:

[NovakTwo]

Right, brushed motors aren't dead yet, but it's only a matter of time, & part of that will depend on what the racing organizations do about the newer brushless motors coming out(like Novak's 13.5 for example, which is VERY close in performance to a ROAR-legal stock brushed motor). Once they allow us to use them in pretty much any class of racing, then I think that'll be the end of brushed motors, because those who develop them will use more & more of their R & D resources on brushless motors instead of brushed....... :cool:

From your lips (keyboard) to God's ears..... :D

[Eli the rc guy]

I think a lot of people are still just waiting for the price to go down over the years until its the same price of our brushed ones. The ESC price still probably kills most peoples interest too, more that then the motor price I should say.

[crazy4wdracer]

Right, brushed motors aren't dead yet, but it's only a matter of time, & part of that will depend on what the racing organizations do about the newer brushless motors coming out(like Novak's 13.5 for example, which is VERY close in performance to a ROAR-legal stock brushed motor). Once they allow us to use them in pretty much any class of racing, then I think that'll be the end of brushed motors, because those who develop them will use more & more of their R & D resources on brushless motors instead of brushed....... :cool:

I can't wait until ROAR legalizes brushless for stock! :D

[rescue119]

for noobs to r/cing like myself brush motors are the way to go.........plus if you are just a weekend bashing you dont need all that power.......i would only buy BL if i was going to race indoors or touring cars......which if i do get into racing a will go nitro and outdoor offroad so i will keep the extra 100 bucks and buy a nice reversing esc

[mugenX5]

Nothing beats the feel of a brushed motor on a tight offroad track. I"ve got the MM 5700 and love the tunability and virtually maintenance free system, but it doesn't feel the same nor does it offer the control I have with a brushed motor.

[ElectricThunder]

I think a lot of people are still just waiting for the price to go down over the years until its the same price of our brushed ones. The ESC price still probably kills most peoples interest too, more that then the motor price I should say.
LRP supposedly has some cheaper brushless stuff coming out; it's based on their AI ESCs and are no where near as powerful as something like the LRP Sphere Competition, but they at least are brushless and hopefully will have some pretty good performance.

It's going to take lots of time though. :(

[cubbieman]

if i have $$$ when my brushed ESC dies i'll go brushless, but otherwise brushed is fine

[savage100]

I think that if the prices stay the same, brushed will always be in. But if brushless comes down, most people would be getting that.

[NovakTwo]

I think that if the prices stay the same, brushed will always be in. But if brushless comes down, most people would be getting that.

What do you think that the street price of a good BL system should be for many more local racers to change over?

For example, BL systems---8.5T, 10.5T, 13.5T and higher?

[ElectricThunder]

What do you think that the street price of a good BL system should be for many more local racers to change over?

For example, BL systems---8.5T, 10.5T, 13.5T and higher?
I'm not savage100, but consider this; the mamba max systems can be had for as little as 160-170 shipped (or bought from an LHS even!) from certain places. Some people still think that's too much money to drop on brushless (certainly a good deal though; considering the systems are supposed to sell for 212.99 or more).

I bought my SS5800 new something like 3 years ago for around 220 bucks off of tower. That was a HUGE expense for me; I got my mamba cheaper (about 190 shipped) off of tower and get 4 times the performance out of it (that's another subject). Maybe castle's business model is something to emulate perhaps? (I know they run on very thin margins...which Novak may not want to do; but if you can lure in way more business, then it may not matter in the end, but who knows!)

My two cents.

[jedipirate]

part of what is holding back brushless is that car companies can put in a 7.00 machine wound brush motor.the performance will be o.k.,but it gets you started.now for the esc...why would they put in a 130.00 to run a 7.00 motor?for the guys getting started,it IS cost effective.if you shop carefully you can get an inexspensive machine wound mod motorfor around 10.00(stormer)and an inexspensive esc for around40-50 bucks.is it the ideal set-up?no.but it does offer good bang for buck.

for the RACERS though brushless is cheaper.cant afford a 200.00 system at once ?then buy the esc first,and run it with the high maintenance brushed motors til you figure out what kv you need then purchase the brushless monster of your choice.i think most of us forget that most 1/10 brushless systems will run brushed motors too,mamba included!

[NovakTwo]

I bought my SS5800 new something like 3 years ago for around 220 bucks off of tower. .... Maybe castle's business model is something to emulate perhaps? (I know they run on very thin margins...which Novak may not want to do; but if you can lure in way more business, then it may not matter in the end, but who knows!)

My two cents.


Novak could cut its overhead significantly if it moved the factory to Kansas.

Unfortunately, none of the employees would move there with it..... :D

[ElectricThunder]

Novak could cut its overhead significantly if it moved the factory to Kansas.

Unfortunately, none of the employees would move there with it..... :D
Oh, but it's soooo pretty I hear! :D

[Grizzbob]

Novak could cut its overhead significantly if it moved the factory to Kansas.

Unfortunately, none of the employees would move there with it..... :D
I have an even better idea, move to OKlahoma, it'd have the same effect & I could work there(I'm not too expensive)..... :D

[GT Freak]

im happy with my stock titans and stunger....guess its me, but i cant see spending TWICE what the model cost just got see it self-destruct on impact. ill be stock-til-deth.\m/

[rccardude04]

It's pretty here in some parts :)
Leave us alone. We're special.
-Eric

[terrible-t]

Brushed motor will be around a long time. Classes that run, Stock, modified, or outlaw, under ROAR rules. Under ROAR rules brushless accepted in modified class only. Soon I think, modified brushed motor wont change much, But the brushless will be a class itself, like Modified brushless class. Its obvious that brushless motor work better with lipos batteries, but lipos are still not legal with ROAR, I think. Does anybody have info on that subject?
Which ever the class you run. It will be there, to satisfy everyone in racing.

[Ghostface Buggy]

I thought brushed motors would still be around for the next 3 - 5 years, but I was wrong for thinking that after what I found out last weekend at the off-road track:

1) All the "fast guys" have now officially switched over to brushless, including the fastest guy at the track. Noobs will see their set-ups and try to emulate them by going brushless.

2) The race director and "fast guys" were talking about the best way to incorporate 10.5's and 13.5's into stock and 19T racing.

Now I have the opinion that brushed motors will become extinct sooner than later. I predict that the "stock" class at the track will become the "stock brushless" class by the end of this year.

And they were also talking about Li-Pos!!!

[Ed237]

I switched to brushless 2 years ago and ran in mod sedan. This year, the track switched to 19T spec brushed motors only and I wasnt very happy about it at first.

But I kept an open mind and went with what the club was running and I ended up having just as much fun as I would have with my brushless.

True, over a 4 month period I needed 4 motors and at $50 each so it was more expensive, but I re-learned that part of racing is tuning motors with springs to the track conditions. And the newer Checkpoints and Komodos really hold up well. I could go 2 weekends without service. And I appreciated the superior drivability and drag braking of good old brushed motors.

I didnt have one motor failure compared to last year when I had a 5.5 die 4 minutes into a main. Sometimes brushless motors do that but nobody really talks about it. Some last 6 months or longer while others dont. At $80 each, they are not cheap anymore either.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but, I can see why some still prefer brushed motors. They are still viable.

If there was room for 10 different classes on race day, brushed motors would be around indefinately. But, eventually, brushless will prevail. Especially once they get enough manufacturers competing in 19T or Stock.

Which makes me wonder, after we go brushless will we still need Stock, 19T, and Mod? Wouldnt it make a lot more sense just to go back to Stock and Mod?

[Cain]

I think you will just see a new seperation of brushless classes along what stock, 19T, and mod is. Just need the industry to spec off of something to go with.

I think brushed can be around for awhile if they opened up the rules to allow the same technology advances that brushless motors are allowed that brushed motors are not. Big Jim gave me a big explanation on this, more than I would ever care to know.

[nicholcgn]

Yes brushless motors will die. If you have a Novak you can send it in for repair and it does not cost as much as a new one. Even if you factored in one brushless motor per year which is extremely high the cost would not be that bad. I always have a spare brushless motor. You have a spare brushed I assume. To me the newer GTB system feels extremely good. I have not driven a castle but the novak is smooth. I actually like it better then brushed for dirt.

Not sure why people think brushless is that much more than a brushed controller. By the time you look at Speedo, motor, some spare bushes and a spare comm you are at the price of a brushless. Last time I ran a brushed you had to do maintenance every other weekend or you could not be competative at all.

With brushless I have to change out motors based on the track. There is still matching of the motor to the track. If you use the reedy motors you can change the timing on some of them. I usually just change motors. I think the biggest mistake people make is one brushless motor fits all tracks. If you will look at matching the motor to the track you would see huge gains.

[Cain]

Don't forgot the cost of a comm lathe. Even used they run about $50.

So assuming you did the cheapo what of used stuff, here is a common brushed cost:

Cyclone 2, Tekin G-10, or other no limit used ESC - $50 - $60
Modified motor (checkpoint, V2, series) used - $30 - $40
1 spare set of new brushes - $5 - $10
Comm lathe - $50 - $75
Comm pen cleaning tool - $5

So when you total it up you have a range between $140 - $190. I figured even at my low end range, for another $40 bucks, the cost of a second motor I could have a full NIB brushless mamba max setup (which I do). And honestly I found that the cost was falling more so in the middle to upper range of what I listed, and remember this is used stuff. Try buying all that new, and it costs more than a brushless setup.

I think once they make a beginner brushless setup for $100 total, say the novak SS style setup that can do brushed and brushless, and power at least a 5700 motor, I think you will see an even bigger explosion. At that price, very hard to beat.

[Ed237]

I never said brushless was more expensive, I acutally said the opposite was true.

Losi has been trying to sell RTR XXXTs with brushless systems with good radios but they still cant get anybody to buy them. Even though I'm an AE guy, I give them credit for putting together such a great package. Yet no one seems interested.

I think what they need to do is actually increase the price to about $750 and equip it with a GTB 6.5 and 5000+ milliamp 7.4v lipo battery and a charger and market it to bashers not racers.

Give everybody what they need in one package and make it simple and fast as hell and they will buy it. 40-50mph and 20 minute run times would create some serious interest and translate into sales.

Just a thought.

[ElectricThunder]

Meh... I'll just wait for miniature nuclear fusion reactors to power generators that will be powering Ion Thruster-like propulsion setups ("good ones", not the ones we have today.....psh!)........:D