ROAR: No LiPos allowed for 2007

[NiMo]

Pulled from a UK forum:

Exploding IB4200's

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily he was in a different room when there was a very loud bang. He went to have a look and found the pack split into many pieces and black dust everywhere. Some cells looked normal, some had puffed out and leaked goo, one (in the centre of the pic) has opened put with no sign of the contents, and one is MIA!

It smashed a battery box 30cm away, damaged a microwave on the other side of the room, 1 cell burnt through the floor, 1 positive button burnt through a cloth on the other side of the room, there are lots of mesh like bits stuck in the ceiling as seen in the 2nd pic, and black stuff everywhere.

They were charged as normal, 6amps 15mv for the pack, there were on from equalised for about 30 mins.

I have heard far to many things about exploding 42's
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1327-2/Cells.jpg
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1326-2/Cells1.jpg

Now tell me NiMh are safe and LiPo are dangerous.
This is only the latest incident of many.

[Craps]

Pulled from a UK forum:

Exploding IB4200's

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luckily he was in a different room when there was a very loud bang. He went to have a look and found the pack split into many pieces and black dust everywhere. Some cells looked normal, some had puffed out and leaked goo, one (in the centre of the pic) has opened put with no sign of the contents, and one is MIA!

It smashed a battery box 30cm away, damaged a microwave on the other side of the room, 1 cell burnt through the floor, 1 positive button burnt through a cloth on the other side of the room, there are lots of mesh like bits stuck in the ceiling as seen in the 2nd pic, and black stuff everywhere.

They were charged as normal, 6amps 15mv for the pack, there were on from equalised for about 30 mins.

I have heard far to many things about exploding 42's
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1327-2/Cells.jpg
http://www.jamrowls.com/gallery2/d/1326-2/Cells1.jpg

Now tell me NiMh are safe and LiPo are dangerous.
This is only the latest incident of many.

Like shratnel from a grenade.......very very dangerous!!!!!

[MarkWesterfield]

oh oh i can play the picture game....

here is a great car fire from lipo cells:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=109244

damn those Lipo's are safe! guess it was a good thing that wasn't parked in his garage at night.

Check out the amount of instructions for Nicd/Nimh compared to the instructions and warnings for lipo packs....

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=32

Yup, every pit space at every track should have lipo pack charging in it. I especially like how your supposed to watch the pack for 10 minutes after a short or a crash to see if there is an internal short.

Sure, you could once again say that the lipo cells they make these days are safer, but once you allow lipo at a track, that means all the old cells are allowed too, all the cheaper, low quality dangerous ones are allowed as well. You've already told us that Lipo last longer and don't have to be replaced as often, so that pretty much guarantees that some of those older technology lipo batteries will make it to the track. Everybody always comes to the track with the latest, greatest, and most up to date equipment right?

[MarkWesterfield]

Here is an r/c plane forum from a couple years back 2003-2005 with some great lipo "problem" stories.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187

For some reason, i just can't find a forum like this for Nimh, I will keep looking though. Interesting to note that most of the instances were from operator error. I suppose making Lipo ROAR legal would reduce operator error? Making Lipo ROAR legal would make every racer everywhere experienced and educated about Lipo usage correct?

[The_Mini_Me]

Mark,you waaay too much read into this all. Your almost coming off as fanatical as this point. I don't think either of the above mentioned this as proof lipo was safer, more to show that nimh is still a volatile technology.

[NiMo]

I have yet to see a LiPo in a car go faulty, but then again we only use the TO 4800 brick pack.
I have however seen the carnage after an aircraft crash, but these LiPo's are usually the one only wrapped in shrink wrap to hold them together, and as the cells are only a soft alloy then yes they can be damaged easily.
Now if you only allowed LiPo's that are in a safety case (like the TO ones) then the chances of damage is minimal, but if you're going to allow the shrink wrapped versions then yes even a kerb knocked can make them explode, which can also happen to NiMh and NiCd cells with only a little more force.
I'm not saying LiPo's are safe, but I still have a burn scar on my chin which was left from an exploding Panasonic 1800 pack we ran back in the mid '90's

[MarkWesterfield]

The mini me

I'm hardly fanatical, I can simply give just as much rebuttal as to why Lipo should not be legal at this point. Heck, I've owned lipo myself myself without problems.

Nimo

Maxamps and Apogee currently sell their lipo packs for r/c car use just in shrink wrap, which is dangerous. I think that the Orion lipo packs are great and that ROAR should create lipo rules around their 4800 and 3200 lipo batteries, and should legalize lipo when more speed controls with lipo voltage cutoff are available and have integrated into mainstream use. I feel the big danger with lipo is how easily the shrink wrapped batteries can be damaged, and how it is easy to damage the batteries with overdischarging and shorting, then recharge the damaged battery creating danger.

[Craps]

ROAR needs to have an Emergency meeting!

Those Nickel Batteries are way too DANGEROUS and need to be banned from Electric Racing and in fact should ban all Electric racing due to all batteries are unsafe.

Need to legalize the wind up rubber band powered car with a 30 second main that would be the safest path for ROAR to take!

:flame: :flame: :flame: :D :D :D

[MarkWesterfield]

Now thats fanatical. :rolleyes:

[NiMo]

ROAR needs to have an Emergency meeting!

Those Nickel Batteries are way too DANGEROUS and need to be banned from Electric Racing and in fact should ban all Electric racing due to all batteries are unsafe.

Need to legalize the wind up rubber band powered car with a 30 second main that would be the safest path for ROAR to take!

:flame: :flame: :flame: :D :D :D

Can't do that, too dangerous.
I almost had my eye taken out by a low flying elastic band
:D :D :D

[nicholcgn]

Bottom line is there is some inherent danger from RC cars. Nitro or electric blah blah blah. I am willing to bet many accidents that cause issues are from someone getting careless with thier saftey practices. How many people have a fire extiguisher in their pits? In theory we all should. How may times have you seen a runaway? There is an inherrent risk. The question is how much risk is acceptable. If Lipo is no more dangerous then lets say getting hit on the track and being laid out then why should it not be allowed? To say you can not have a risk when there are other risk that are just as bad I say that is bull. Lets start having driving test and telling people they are too dangerous or track their wrecks in a race and send them home.

What we need is someone from roar to spell out their issues and let some of these battery manufactures meet the requirements or prove their worries false. Oh yea - ROAR will have to not pull the one more requirement trick
every time they meet the old ones. I do not think they will but lets get the initial requirements set. Then work for a final revision in 6 months to a year.
If the batteries can not meet up then all I can say is it is not for RC.

Can someone from ROAR start this proccess rolling?

[neweuser]

Bottom line is there is some inherent danger from RC cars. Nitro or electric blah blah blah. I am willing to bet many accidents that cause issues are from someone getting careless with thier saftey practices. How many people have a fire extiguisher in their pits? In theory we all should. How may times have you seen a runaway? There is an inherrent risk. The question is how much risk is acceptable. If Lipo is no more dangerous then lets say getting hit on the track and being laid out then why should it not be allowed? To say you can not have a risk when there are other risk that are just as bad I say that is bull. Lets start having driving test and telling people they are too dangerous or track their wrecks in a race and send them home.

What we need is someone from roar to spell out their issues and let some of these battery manufactures meet the requirements or prove their worries false. Oh yea - ROAR will have to not pull the one more requirement trick
every time they meet the old ones. I do not think they will but lets get the initial requirements set. Then work for a final revision in 6 months to a year.
If the batteries can not meet up then all I can say is it is not for RC.

Can someone from ROAR start this proccess rolling?
That is the smartest thing I think I've read in all these posts next to "ROAR this and ROAR that, stop already"!
There are many dangers in RC racing no matter how you look at it. If you want to run LIPO, go RC Pro as previously stated and stay away from ROAR. That simple. And really, you never hear the good about LIPO anyway. I have never had an issue running LIPO, but I follow the precautions as well. And, a plane the blows up, or starts on fire? What RC car is 25 feet in the air? Only an idiot would ramp one with a lipo pack anywho. IMO

[WJ Birmingham]

The mini me

I'm hardly fanatical, I can simply give just as much rebuttal as to why Lipo should not be legal at this point. Heck, I've owned lipo myself myself without problems.

Nimo

Maxamps and Apogee currently sell their lipo packs for r/c car use just in shrink wrap, which is dangerous. I think that the Orion lipo packs are great and that ROAR should create lipo rules around their 4800 and 3200 lipo batteries, and should legalize lipo when more speed controls with lipo voltage cutoff are available and have integrated into mainstream use. I feel the big danger with lipo is how easily the shrink wrapped batteries can be damaged, and how it is easy to damage the batteries with overdischarging and shorting, then recharge the damaged battery creating danger.

Now hold on there just a minute. If you actually do some more research, you'll find that larger packs can actually blow the lid off of ammo boxes if contained, which is specifically why we do not use a "safety case" (as previously called).

You MUST (just like with Nickel) allow the gasses a place to go upon vent (gee, wonder why Nickel has that spring loaded vent). If you don't, then you wind up with a grenade as shown in the above mentioned photos with Nickel cells that had vent failures.

From our testing, it's actually SAFER TO NOT HAVE A CASE than to confine the rapidly expanding gasses into a small area causing the rupture of the case and thus allowing flying debris.

What IS DANGEROUS ARE PACKS CONFINED TO CASES.

Additionally, on our 1/10th scale packs, due to the size/weight, we also include polycarbonate sheeting on both sides of the pack to reduce the risk of pack damage due to 'pit rash'...but if you owned one of our packs prior to making statements such as "Maxamps and Apogee currently sell their lipo packs for r/c car use just in shrink wrap, which is dangerous.", you'd know this already.

Of course, the best course of action is to create a safer chemistry like the new Apogee Li-Mn which is what we're moving our product line to.

-WJ

[neweuser]

How thick is the polycarbonate sheeting?

[Craps]

Now hold on there just a minute. If you actually do some more research, you'll find that larger packs can actually blow the lid off of ammo boxes if contained, which is specifically why we do not use a "safety case" (as previously called).

You MUST (just like with Nickel) allow the gasses a place to go upon vent (gee, wonder why Nickel has that spring loaded vent). If you don't, then you wind up with a grenade as shown in the above mentioned photos with Nickel cells that had vent failures.

From our testing, it's actually SAFER TO NOT HAVE A CASE than to confine the rapidly expanding gasses into a small area causing the rupture of the case and thus allowing flying debris.

What IS DANGEROUS ARE PACKS CONFINED TO CASES.


I agree with this 100% and think it is a huge mistake made by Orion and Peak to put li-pos in a case!!! The 3 plus years I have raced with li-pos in off road RCs you need to see if there is a problem with the li-po and the first sign is when the cell starts swelling up. This is plenty of advance warning and most li-po manufacturers have limited warranties on them!!!!

What a waste of money putting li-pos in a case. Trying to make the consumer feel safer by making them as dangerous as nickel batteries by encasing them.

[CarbonMadness]

I agree with this 100% and think it is a huge mistake made by Orion and Peak to put li-pos in a case!!! The 3 plus years I have raced with li-pos in off road RCs you need to see if there is a problem with the li-po and the first sign is when the cell starts swelling up. This is plenty of advance warning and most li-po manufacturers have limited warranties on them!!!!

What a waste of money putting li-pos in a case. Trying to make the consumer feel safer by making them as dangerous as nickel batteries by encasing them.
Wouldn't it cost a little more also to put the cells in a case versus wrapping them in plastic?

[MarkWesterfield]

"Of course, the best course of action is to create a safer chemistry like the new Apogee Li-Mn which is what we're moving our product line to."

Then why push to legalize Li-po?

"we also include polycarbonate sheeting on both sides of the pack to reduce the risk of pack damage due to 'pit rash'..."

How about side protection? Are your packs subject to damage from side impacts such as when a touring car get t-boned, or in a head on crash when the battery is smashed up against the battery strap post?

Put vents in the plastic case, the plastic case reduces risk of physical damage from crashes. If speed controls had lipo cutoff to prevent over-discharging and everybody had the correct charger, why would a lipo batteries have a problem? physical damage? defect? or are they that unstable?

[Craps]

"Of course, the best course of action is to create a safer chemistry like the new Apogee Li-Mn which is what we're moving our product line to."

Then why push to legalize Li-po?

"we also include polycarbonate sheeting on both sides of the pack to reduce the risk of pack damage due to 'pit rash'..."

How about side protection? Are your packs subject to damage from side impacts such as when a touring car get t-boned, or in a head on crash when the battery is smashed up against the battery strap post?

Put vents in the plastic case, the plastic case reduces risk of physical damage from crashes. If speed controls had lipo cutoff to prevent over-discharging and everybody had the correct charger, why would a lipo batteries have a problem? physical damage? defect? or are they that unstable?

In the 3 years of racing off road with li-pos from 1/10th scale stadium trucks to 1/8th scale buggies, we have broken chassis in half, we have had them flung 20 to 30 feet through the air out of the RC and hit any way you can hit one with the shrink wrapped Thunder Power ones with no accidents to date. I have seen them swell up and short out till it burned up a ESC. These batteries are tougher and not as violatile as everybody has been led to believe from ALL THE INTERNET GOSSIP!!!! They are tough batteries! Just don't over discharge them or they are ruined. They will not blow up from being overdischarged and I have yet to see one blow up or burn. I am guessing to even blow one up will take long time of overcharging and that would be a long time after it swells up.

There is alot of Pro Truck racers in my area that have them with no accidents to date.

[Craps]

I think Matt was wanting to know the tracks and schedule of this series that is one of the top series in country. Don't be surprised to see at any of the races at The Farm2 in Charlotte, NC the top 20 or 30 ROAR off road racers getting ready for the ROAR Truck Nats there in 2007 or the 1/8th Worlds there in 2008.

The East Coast Nitro Series

CLASSES

Pro Truck (lipo electric truck)1/10th Scale Gas Truck

Production Monster Truck

1/8th Scale Sportsman Buggy

1/8th Scale Arena Truck

1/8th Scale Pro Buggy

SCHEDULE AND TRACKS

March 16 – 17th (18th rain date) Round 1 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

April 20th – 21st (22nd rain date) Round 2 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

May 18th – 19th (20th rain date) Round 3 ECNS
Proving Grounds, Sumter SC

June 1st – 2nd (3rd rain date) Round 4 ECNS
Rodslingers, Griffin, GA

July 13th – 14th (15th rain date) Round 5 ECNS
The Tiltyard, Dayton, VA

September 7th-8th (9th rain date) Round 6 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

October 12th – 13th (14th rain date) Round 7 ECNS
Badlands, Myrtle Beach, SC

November 16th – 18th Round 8 / Fall Nitro Fest
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

The li-po electric trucks are the only electrics allowed at the Farm 2 after being a nitro only track.

[MarkWesterfield]

I've been racing r/c cars with Nicd/Nimh in them for over 24 years. I can certainly attest to the durability and safety of nicd/nimh cells. I've charged packs at 18 amps without cells exploding like grenades, heck i started out charging batteries by just connecting them straight to a car battery! I've dead shorted fully charged packs and watched the connections glow red hot until they have vented and melted apart without hot shrapnel flying everywhere. I've even thrown fully charged cells into fire to watch them explode. Obviously, I have not encountered every experience one can have, and I can accept that and assume that their is a danger with using nicd/nimh batteries. Somehow Craps, I don't think you have come across every situation with Lipo cells yet with your 3 years experience. It would certainly be unfortunate for somebody to listen to your advice and have a different experience than you and your only response would be that you haven't had any bad experiences.

The best part about Lipo internet gossip, is that it was started by the model airplane guys who have been using them for much longer than you. Internet gossip can come from anywhere I suppose and it can certainly come from both sides of the fence.

[thedoc329]

i suggest just putting on an "18 and over only" warning sticker on the pack so it would lift ALL eyebrows, bashers newbies and racers alike. also include detailed instructions( wich most do already) ehem,mark? and as far as the roar ban, i am an avid supporter of ALL r/c orginizations, none more so than the next, all orginized racing and especially club racing should embrace this technology with open arms. the more people we get involved the better off we all are as enthusiasts. let it ride, the more options we have the better it is for every one!!

[Craps]

Mark
With all that said, go to an RC airfield or airshow and try to find nickel battery pack used in a RC airplane. Until li-pos came out, electric powered RC aircraft was dieing with a huge amount of growth since then in electrics. This from the group with more li-po experience than all of us have totally and wisely accepted the superior li-po technology to let electric flying take over with huge growth again.

Electric RC racing has been dieing with the current nickel only rules and will not change until li-pos are allowed with longer races and less maintence motor systems.

[Ed237]

I never argued against LiPo based upon safety and performance. Its safe enough and the performance is better. Unfortunately for LiPo proponents, there are other debates that take precedence: 6 cell vs 5 cell and brushed vs brushless.

All of the sactioning bodies (not just ROAR) are looking for ways to slow cars down and improve reliability. Current NiMH batteries have already exceeded what ESCs and motors can handle in extreme racing conditions. I assume they could make motors and ESC to take full advantage of the newer batteries but they would probably cost 3x what they do now.

If my car was the only one on the track I would want all the speed thats possible with todays technology . I'm sure driving a car capable of 50-60 mph would be exhilerating and LiPos would help make that a possibility. But, the downside is that the racing such a car with 10 other cars going at those speeds would be very frustrating because of all of the unavoidable wrecks and failures. Its just common sense.

[NiMo]

2 more posts from a UK site:

pete..theres a girl in hospital as we speak because a nimh reciever pack blew up in her face..they are just as dangerous as lipos,no they do not incinerate,they go off like a hand grenade,ive seen a pack do it and the resulting damage it caused.

theres are already lipos on the market that do not incinerate even when punctured with a 6 inch nail being driven thru them..but your right,safety of both kinds is paramount,and we have to treat them both with respect.


Next letter, which continues from the above story:

Thankyou Neil for those kind words mate i have asked my mom to do a statement for me and to post it on here so if any mistakes PLEASE DO NOT SHOUT AT MY MOM as she does not use pc;s;


this is savagemachine mom replied on behalf of her

thanks to all of you for your concern and nice words it is really appreciated i was released from gloucester hospital late tuesday evening and now back home my eyesight in the right eye is back to 90% unfortunally the sight in the left is none at all as the damage to the left eye is more than the right my face has few burns on it but will heal overtime i have to go back to gloucester hospital next tuesday so hopefully will have more informatoin then once again many thanks and hopefully will be back out on the track again

Savagemachine


I will keep you all updated on how my progress goes;

This is what can happen when leaning over a buggy when a hump pack explodes OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So it just goes to show that even an RX pack can be dangerous.
Also I had a 12v Leisure battery go up in flames in the garage connected to the house, fortunately the car was not in there at the time, the battery was only 6 charges old, and was never knocked, so all this talk of what is safe and what is dangerous is just a load of talk.
I'm not here to sell anything, I'm only talking facts from experience, and if you don't like what I write then don't read it.

[Rick Hohwart]

Now hold on there just a minute. If you actually do some more research, you'll find that larger packs can actually blow the lid off of ammo boxes if contained, which is specifically why we do not use a "safety case" (as previously called).

You MUST (just like with Nickel) allow the gasses a place to go upon vent (gee, wonder why Nickel has that spring loaded vent). If you don't, then you wind up with a grenade as shown in the above mentioned photos with Nickel cells that had vent failures.

From our testing, it's actually SAFER TO NOT HAVE A CASE than to confine the rapidly expanding gasses into a small area causing the rupture of the case and thus allowing flying debris.

What IS DANGEROUS ARE PACKS CONFINED TO CASES.

Additionally, on our 1/10th scale packs, due to the size/weight, we also include polycarbonate sheeting on both sides of the pack to reduce the risk of pack damage due to 'pit rash'...but if you owned one of our packs prior to making statements such as "Maxamps and Apogee currently sell their lipo packs for r/c car use just in shrink wrap, which is dangerous.", you'd know this already.

Of course, the best course of action is to create a safer chemistry like the new Apogee Li-Mn which is what we're moving our product line to.

-WJ

It looks like someone needs to actually buy an Orion Lipo pack and examine its construction before speaking about something which he has not researched.

Team Orion's cases are not sealed units. They are there to protect the contents from punctures and road rash associated with typical R/C car crashes. They are not sealed units designed to contain expansion or an explosion. In fact they are designed allow complete expansion of the contents if necessary.

They will not explode like a grenade into a cloud or shrapnel and do not hide cell expansion.

[WJ Birmingham]

It looks like someone needs to actually buy an Orion Lipo pack and examine its construction before speaking about something which he has not researched.

Team Orion's cases are not sealed units. They are there to protect the contents from punctures and road rash associated with typical R/C car crashes. They are not sealed units designed to contain expansion or an explosion. In fact they are designed allow complete expansion of the contents if necessary.

They will not explode like a grenade into a cloud or shrapnel and do not hide cell expansion.

Actually Rick, I also own a hobby shop and we sell your products, so I am familiar with their construction.

-WJ

[ElectricThunder]

...and do not hide cell expansion.
How would you see if the cells expanded or not in an opaque case? My logical guess is to assume that you can't, because you can't see through the case. Therefore, the case would not allow you to see whether or not cells are expanding. Correct? :confused:

[Rick Hohwart]

How would you see if the cells expanded or not in an opaque case? My logical guess is to assume that you can't, because you can't see through the case. Therefore, the case would not allow you to see whether or not cells are expanding. Correct? :confused:

Internally, there is no gap between the cells and the case. Cells swell, case gaps.

[ElectricThunder]

Internally, there is no gap between the cells and the case. Cells swell, case gaps.
The case itself expands too then?

[The_Mini_Me]

How does the case swell? Does it split at the seams?

[linger]

How does the case swell? Does it split at the seams?

The Peak/Orion case is a 2 part case. Each part is not glued, keyed or sonic welded together. It's only held together by the sticker. If the cells happen to expand, the sticker rips apart. I think it's an elegant solution.

[tomcat-racing]

i think Roar made a good choice. lipos are very dangours on carpet if you run a lipo pack and the carpet catchs on fire the whole buildings going up in flames. i have heard of expoldeing packs. like 1 from jeff cuffs jeff had 1 in his front seat of his car he comes out the next day and his front seats all burnt up.


some places wont even alow lipos unless you put a $10,000's down before you run in case you blow a hole in the track (know ones ever done this)

[NiMo]

Update to earlier post


This is the update on Mandy after visit from hospital today;

Unfortunally it is not as good news as we were expecting but anything is better than nothing;

Mandy has 90% sight in right eye with a slight blurdeness this will stay like this for the rest of her life ;

The left eye still has no sight in it at all but we have been told it is early days and this is going to be a very long progress time she has got very deep scaring to her left eye and also severe damage which is causing the sight difficulties for her and the permanant blurdness that she is experiencing all the time;

Mandy has to go back to Gloucester hospital in a few weeks so hopefully this could be a better outlook for Mandy and she has to continue on her 5 lots of eye drops every 2 hours until next visit to hospital;

Unfortunally this is all i can tell you at this moment in time and will update when i can on her progress

Savagemachine MOM

[neweuser]

i think Roar made a good choice. lipos are very dangours on carpet if you run a lipo pack and the carpet catchs on fire the whole buildings going up in flames. i have heard of expoldeing packs. like 1 from jeff cuffs jeff had 1 in his front seat of his car he comes out the next day and his front seats all burnt up.


some places wont even alow lipos unless you put a $10,000's down before you run in case you blow a hole in the track (know ones ever done this)
Well, here is a perfect example of why they are dangerous. Why in the world would you leave the pack in your car? I mean really, c'mon!

[Nomadio_Sales]

some places wont even alow lipos unless you put a $10,000's down before you run in case you blow a hole in the track (know ones ever done this)


Pleased name the tracks as you said some "Places" inferring there are more then one track that requires this.

[Craps]

i think Roar made a good choice. lipos are very dangours on carpet if you run a lipo pack and the carpet catchs on fire the whole buildings going up in flames. i have heard of expoldeing packs. like 1 from jeff cuffs jeff had 1 in his front seat of his car he comes out the next day and his front seats all burnt up.


some places wont even alow lipos unless you put a $10,000's down before you run in case you blow a hole in the track (know ones ever done this)

So Einstein, what do they do when the nickel packs catch on fire and burn the building down??? Nickel packs are more likely to catch fire than li-pos!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/October-Blue/th_boom.gif

[MarkWesterfield]

actually, the internals of NIMH don't burn and catch on fire like the internal chemical of lithium packs. Lithium ignites and burns when exposed to Nitrogen , which is 78% percent of the Earths atmosphere. NIMH packs are not more likely to catch fire. You really shouldn't complain about people spreading misconceptions about Lipo if your going spread misconceptions about NIMH.

Look, this thread is dead already, if your an r/c car racer, then race r/c cars, if you want to race in a ROAR race, follow the rules, if you want to make or change rules, join a committee.

[Craps]

Craps, do you know what other east-coast tracks will be hosting the Pro Trucks with the 20 minute mains?

Matt
Just read in RC Car Action where you guys are going to sponsor and cover the ECNS! Thank you and maybe 20 minute electric mains will get some national recognition!

I think Matt was wanting to know the tracks and schedule of this series that is one of the top series in country. Don't be surprised to see at any of the races at The Farm2 in Charlotte, NC the top 20 or 30 ROAR off road racers getting ready for the ROAR Truck Nats there in 2007 or the 1/8th Worlds there in 2008.

The East Coast Nitro Series

CLASSES

Pro Truck (lipo electric truck) 1/10th scale

1/10th Scale Gas Truck

Production Monster Truck

1/8th Scale Sportsman Buggy

1/8th Scale Arena Truck

1/8th Scale Pro Buggy

SCHEDULE AND TRACKS

March 16 – 17th (18th rain date) Round 1 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

April 20th – 21st (22nd rain date) Round 2 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

May 18th – 19th (20th rain date) Round 3 ECNS
Proving Grounds, Sumter SC

June 1st – 2nd (3rd rain date) Round 4 ECNS
Rodslingers, Griffin, GA

July 13th – 14th (15th rain date) Round 5 ECNS
The Tiltyard, Dayton, VA

September 7th-8th (9th rain date) Round 6 ECNS
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

October 12th – 13th (14th rain date) Round 7 ECNS
Badlands, Myrtle Beach, SC

November 16th – 18th Round 8 / Fall Nitro Fest
The Farm 2, Charlotte, NC

The li-po electric trucks are the only electrics allowed at the Farm 2 after being a nitro only track.


Thanks again!!!!

[Nomadio_Sales]

If ROAR is so concerned about their INSURANCE then WHY do they DEMAND and allow altered radios to race? The FCC has a $10,000 fine for what ROAR DEMANDS we do for a level 3 race.

[Mel*E*Mel]

If ROAR is so concerned about their INSURANCE then WHY do they DEMAND and allow altered radios to race? The FCC has a $10,000 fine for what ROAR DEMANDS we do for a level 3 race.
How do you have to alter the radio?

[trailranger]

i think Roar made a good choice. lipos are very dangours on carpet if you run a lipo pack and the carpet catchs on fire the whole buildings going up in flames. i have heard of expoldeing packs. like 1 from jeff cuffs jeff had 1 in his front seat of his car he comes out the next day and his front seats all burnt up.


some places wont even alow lipos unless you put a $10,000's down before you run in case you blow a hole in the track (know ones ever done this)

Ohh that is what happends when you disolve rubber (a hydocarbon) and work it into carpet and lace it with more solvents. Its not a "Blue Groove" it is a fire hazard.

[Nomadio_Sales]

If you change or expose the crystal so it can be changed it is an altered radio per the FCC. ROAR has for years allowed this even though the industry went to sealed RF decks. ROAR still allows in fact at level three races demands you to run radios that you change crystals in, even though it puts the radio out of factory tune and risks others on the same band who may not even be running an R/C car.

[MarkWesterfield]

ROAR rule...

4.1.3 All radio equipment must conform to FCC rules. Only narrow band (20 MHz spacing) radios will be allowed to use the 75 MHz frequencies in ROAR competition. A frequency counter or similar device should be used to test for legal frequencies.

FCC rule...

Sec. 95.222 (R/C Rule 22) May I make any changes to my R/C station transmitter?

(a) You must not make or have anyone else make an internal
modification to your R/C transmitter.
(b) Internal modification does not include:
(1) Repair or servicing of an R/C station transmitter (see R/C Rule 21, Sec. 95.221); or
(2) Changing plug-in modules which were certificated as part of your R/C transmitter.
(c) You must not operate an R/C transmitter which has been modified by anyone in any way, including modification to operate on unauthorized frequencies or with illegal power. (See R/C Rules 9 and 10, Secs. 95.209 and 95.210.)

FCC rules permit frequency change via replacement of the frequency module because the module is the part that is tuned to the frequency crystal. Removing the crystal from the module and swapping in another different frequncy is illegal.

Here is a helpful link (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94580)

That is certainly a rule that gets overlooked, thats for certain. But it appears its not the only one...

On an intresting side note....from the FCC website...

"Radio Control (R/C) is a one-way, short distance, non-voice radio service for on/off operation of devices at places distant from the operator. The FCC authorizes your R/C unit to transmit any non-voice emission type for the purpose of (1) the operator turning on and/or off a device at a remote location, or (2) an indicating device for the operator being turned on and/or off by a sensor at a remote location. You cannot communicate voice or data in the R/C."

Wouldn't it seem that onboard telemtry such as featured on some Nomadio radio systems (as well as others) would be communicating data in the R/C?

Should ROAR ban radio's with telemetry because the FCC says you cannot communicate data two ways over r/c? Or should we let this one slide too?

:teacher:

[pinolelst]

In the 3 years of racing off road with li-pos from 1/10th scale stadium trucks to 1/8th scale buggies, we have broken chassis in half, we have had them flung 20 to 30 feet through the air out of the RC and hit any way you can hit one with the shrink wrapped Thunder Power ones with no accidents to date. I have seen them swell up and short out till it burned up a ESC. These batteries are tougher and not as violatile as everybody has been led to believe from ALL THE INTERNET GOSSIP!!!! They are tough batteries! Just don't over discharge them or they are ruined. They will not blow up from being overdischarged and I have yet to see one blow up or burn. I am guessing to even blow one up will take long time of overcharging and that would be a long time after it swells up.

There is alot of Pro Truck racers in my area that have them with no accidents to date.

Here here..couldn't have said it better.I've been using lipos for years in my rc's and have yet to see a fire from any of my packs
More than a few times :D I've crashed a lipo powered plane at high speed and found that my lipo cells had been physically damaged to the point of being unusable and I've even purposefully driven a nail through a lipo cell to see if they were really as volatile as at least one person had claimed..no fire.
I have a brushless tc-3..brushless LST...brushless FM1 motorcycle.brushless rc18t..brushless xxx-t mf2...soon to be brushless Cen Matrix 1/8 buggy.All lipo powered and used primarily for parking lot /dirt lot bashing. I have yet to damage a cell in any of my electric land vehicles ,probably because they have less chance of plummeting from 500 feet straight up :D

nickel based cells are dead along with brushed motors..

Viva La Revolucion !!!!!!!! :D

[redneckracer197]

the nomadio is a 2.4 system not a tradtional AM/FM 27/75 system so the FCC rules might be different on it. Think of a cordless phone as they run 2.4 also

[MarkWesterfield]

Ah, but by Nomadio's own website, they call their gear "r/c", whereas 2.4ghz phones do not.

"React transmits at 100Hz which makes it the fastest reacting R/C radio made."

See how easy it is to split hairs? Seriously, if you guys want to see changes like lipo being legal for ROAR races, then step up to the plate and join ROAR and make a difference. Sitting on the computer at home typing on forums gives you absolutly no credibility.

Nomadio, If somebody told you over the internet forums to change the way you made r/c radios because they think it should be different to suit themselves, would you change the way you made radios knowing that they are not going to buy them anyway? I'm certain if your customers asked for changes, you would be more likely to listen.

Perhaps ROAR would listen to more of its members asking for legal lipo than it has listened to non-member internet complainers.

[Craps]

Just want to point out they're are some national series that allow li-pos too without belonging to an organization that does not allow them!

[pinolelst]

Perhaps ROAR would listen to more of its members asking for legal lipo than it has listened to non-member internet complainers.

Funny...you assume that you know who is and who is not a ROAR member. :D

I used to belong to ROAR...also the AMA...I no longer belong to either ineffectual organization.ROAR won't listen to anyone but manufacturers and AMA had so many loopholes in it's insurance as to make it laughable..

Clubs are for joiners..not leaders.

pinolelst

[Nomadio_Sales]

Mark I agree with you about ROAR on the radios your quoting non software driven radio FCC rules ;)

[Nomadio_Sales]

Mark true the gate swings both ways radios with 2.4GHz that the owners have re-routed the antenna from the stock 2.4GHz RF deck are out of FCC. Or 2.4GHz receivers with transmitters built in that are not shielded would not conform either under strict FCC oversight. Radios where the end user installs a back light would not conform either.

You need to read the FCC certs for the radios as well, remembering the Cert is what is OK with the FCC for that radio in question. The Nomadio radios have our certs in place with telem ;) Can't say that about all 2.4GHz radios and "receivers"

ROAR has for years allowed even demanded people change crystals not sealed RF decks in direct violation of the ROAR rule and FCC. And now they want to tell us about safe use of batteries? When they promote the use of modified radios?

There is no FCC fine for running a Lipo in a R/C car but there is a $10,000 FCC fine for using a mod radio yet ROAR over looks that little issue.

Karlton Spindle
ROAR 12-87482

[tmhippo]

Hi every one :) I a rookie at posting on this site. I am a belive in the Li-Po batts. and have 2 TO 4800 now. I have read about half of the post so far. Here is how I see it. Safety is the major concern! I think that Team Orion is on the right track with it case, protect the battery in the event of a major crash. What we need to do is come up with Ideas to give the manufature ways to inprove them to make them legal. How about this in the Hard case have a pin that will protured in the event of cell over charging (Swelling) Lets get Reedy or Trinity to make Li-PO, customer base drives the market. Have the pro drives run li-po and give the governing body input on what the rules for this technology should be.

Lets stop fighting and come up with soloutions

There will all ways be nuckleheads that try to take short cut and have paid the price.

But we can megate some this by having voltage cut off devices made manditory in order to race. Maybe post waring signs around the track about charging at 1C, conduct spot check to insure compliance. do not allow gulity party to race for not following proper battery charging procedures.

These are just some Ideas. Let help the market out put our heads together and come up with the fixes and make it safer than current batt tech.

rodney

[MarkWesterfield]

Everybody that wants Lipo ROAR legal needs to join ROAR and voice their opinion as a voting member. I was at the 2006 Modified off-road nationals and nobody there was complaining about not being able to use lipo. As such most of the racers there were sponsored drivers. The pro racers run legal equipment (at little or no personal expense) at the races they attend, so they are not going to run lipo unless they are legal. If mostly the pro drivers, who are not complaining, are attending ROAR races, then ROAR really has no reason to change the rules.

If you want Lipo ROAR legal, Join ROAR and voice your opinion to the President, Vice President, and Executive Commitee. But don't just leave them in the dark with "make Lipo legal", tell them how many cells, what voltage, what sizes, what brands, etc. ROAR is not going to change the rules for backyard bashers that bought illegal batteries, are not ROAR members, and do not goto ROAR races.

[Craps]

Too many races and racetracks that allow them to worry about ROAR!

Don't worry about ROAR, they will catch up to the 21st century one of these days! ROAR doesn't even come close to even a small percentage of representation of RC racing in this country or they would quit being influenced by those that lose alot financially by allowing li-pos.

Want to race using li-pos just do what 98% of the RC racers in this country do and that is race at non-ROAR sanctioned tracks and events.

The only electric class racing at the track where the ROAR gas truck Nationals are at this year and the 2008 World's IFMAR 1/8th scale championship race does allow li-pos and has a 20 minute main. The Farm II

[schenck77]

I only run lipo packs now, but I have to admit Mark is right. Roar is not going to listen to people that do not go to there races. If they are not making money off of you why should they really care what you want.

I do believe roar will eventually allow lipo pack though. However I dont think it will happen until a manufacter steps in and proposses it to them and works with them on the rules like novak did with brushless.

[nicholcgn]

I do not believe they will listen. I have been a paid member and posted my request to them many times. I can not do national events but do regional ones. If they only listen to people at the national events they are leaving out the bulk of the people. Roar will not listen to the members or get trends from these boards. Only way I see this changing is that a manufacturer will have to step up and work hand in hand with them. They should do it on a forum and get roar to post requirements before they can become legal.

I do not see why Roar can not set the requirements\concerns they have out in a forum. Let the manufactures and users see them. If One of them can meet requirements or work with roar to get it removed then we will have something. Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels. Support a series that allows lipos.

I am running the RC pro series for electric this year. They allow lipos. You guys want ROAR to listen. Sign up and run atleast one of these races. When the series has 130 racers each day they will take notice.

[Craps]

I do not believe they will listen. I have been a paid member and posted my request to them many times. I can not do national events but do regional ones. If they only listen to people at the national events they are leaving out the bulk of the people. Roar will not listen to the members or get trends from these boards. Only way I see this changing is that a manufacturer will have to step up and work hand in hand with them. They should do it on a forum and get roar to post requirements before they can become legal.

I do not see why Roar can not set the requirements\concerns they have out in a forum. Let the manufactures and users see them. If One of them can meet requirements or work with roar to get it removed then we will have something. Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels. Support a series that allows lipos.

I am running the RC pro series for electric this year. They allow lipos. You guys want ROAR to listen. Sign up and run atleast one of these races. When the series has 130 racers each day they will take notice.

Great Post!!!

[Craps]

Well the ban did not last long since ROAR has added a Brushless Li-po Class to the Electric Off Road Nationals next month with a 20 minute main!

With this change of ROAR policy it is showing the direction Electric Racing is taking!

Good move ROAR and way to step up to the future of Electric Racing!!!!

NOTE: It appears ROAR has copied my Pro Truck Class we have had in here in the Carolinas for over 3 years now allowing any 2 cell li-po and any motor in a 2wd stadium truck!

[ElectricThunder]

Well the ban did not last long since ROAR has added a Brushless Li-po Class to the Electric Off Road Nationals next month with a 20 minute main!

With this change of ROAR policy it is showing the direction Electric Racing is taking!

Good move ROAR and way to step up to the future of Electric Racing!!!!

NOTE: It appears ROAR has copied my Pro Truck Class we have had in here in the Carolinas for over 3 years now allowing any 2 cell li-po and any motor in a 2wd stadium truck!
Wow; that's definitely interesting! Looks like you rubbed off on them Craps;). ROAR racing is going to get interesting I think.:D

[Craps]

Adam Drake watched our class at the Farm last month and I hope this is what alot of Pros are looking for as an elite electric class with a 20 minute non-stop main!

[ElectricThunder]

Wow, that's pretty cool. It should make racing more interesting having longer mains.

[Craps]

I want to thank MarkWesterfield for recommending I join ROAR which I did so I could race at the Gas Truck Nationals at the Farm this year and bingo.....Dawn Sanchez added my Li-po/Brushless(Pro Truck) Class to the schedule at the Electric Off-Road Nats. I did not even ask for it, but I think it was noticed how much it has grown in the Carolinas and it is good ROAR is adding this class for the future!

[FLYBOY7]

can someone please post the new ROAR rules showing which li-po's are legal and which are not?? if they are legal, i'ld like to know which ones are..

[MarkWesterfield]

Your Welcome, and make sure you vote in ROAR elections.

Shame there wasn't a little more notice, but we'll see how it does. Hopefully, local ROAR membership will increase for region 10 for this race. I would hope that you would see companies like Maxamps, Apogee, and Orion with their with some batteries to loan out to see if other attendee's would be intrested in the class. Now we will see how much effort and dedication the guys that want a lipo class are. You got a National event, you have all the money you've claimed to have saved using lipo, now lets see if that money will go towards attending a ROAR lipo national race. Its "put your money where your mouth is" time.

Mark

[MarkWesterfield]

"Great news for you guys in love with LiPo and Brushless!!! And.. for those of you wanting to see the technology......

the 2007 ROAR Off Road Electric Nationals has added a LiPo/Brushless demo class!!!! This will be worked into the program of the four day race schedule, another first for ROAR!

Rules are this:

$50.00 entry (entry flyer will be changed)

Late sign ups ok for THIS CLASS ONLY - as long as its done no later than Wednesday at the track -before racing begins.

7.4V, any capacity LiPo battery
ANY BRUSHLESS MOTOR - open!
ROAR Legal 1:10 2wd Truck
6 minute qualifiers
20 minute A main, B main 10 minutes, the remaining mains, 6 minutes ** No bump ups **
Trophies for A main

You must either send in entry flyer from ROAR website or late sign up at the track no later than Wednesday of the event. (cash or check only)

This is open to anybody!! Even if you have signed up for three classes max as per rules, you may enter this demo class as well.

Questions to dmsanchez@cox.net

Dawn Sanchez
ROAR Vice President"

[Craps]

Your Welcome, and make sure you vote in ROAR elections.

Shame there wasn't a little more notice, but we'll see how it does. Hopefully, local ROAR membership will increase for region 10 for this race. I would hope that you would see companies like Maxamps, Apogee, and Orion with their with some batteries to loan out to see if other attendee's would be intrested in the class. Now we will see how much effort and dedication the guys that want a lipo class are. You got a National event, you have all the money you've claimed to have saved using lipo, now lets see if that money will go towards attending a ROAR lipo national race. Its "put your money where your mouth is" time.

Mark

Mark you mentioned how short notice it is then you turn around and make it sound like they can rearrange plans on a very short notice to attend an event with less than 1 months notice that most racers plan to go to a national 6 months to a year in advance. I knew I was going to the Gas Truck Nationals and have been entered for over a month now and that race is not till August with one advantage I have in it being 15 minutes from my house. Now I get 1 months notice to attend a race on the other side of the country and you expect a big turnout....don't dis this class if it is not well attended due to the fact, but I am going to try my best to rearrange things including a wedding anniversary to make it from NC to NM to this race!

Are you going?

PS. I have extra 8000 mah li-pos for some to use if I make it there.

[Craps]

Rumor has it AE wants to showcase the LRP system and the Peak/Orion guys want to showcase they're li-po batteries in this class, but it is just a rumor.

[MarkWesterfield]

Nope, not going this year (went the last two, which reminds me I have to renew my membership). Taking a non-r/c vacation with my girlfriend this year. I also have heard that this track is really bad on tire wear to the point of a set of tires each run. So I'm not really intrested in spending $40 a run, on top of a $70 entry fee, plus travel expenses. And this year is not a World's qualifier. I plan to attend Cactus Classic and Nationals next year.

Honeslty, I don't expect a large travel turnout. Like I mentioned on rctech, I would like to see if ROAR membership will increase at all in the local region and see if there is a lipo following in that area (outside of the Carolina's). I would also like to see a little promotion from the Lipo companies with some batteries on-hand for some of the guys that will already be attending the race (they mostly already have a ROAR membership).

[Craps]

Gasoline Prices approaching $4 per gallon and in some parts over that amount is really going to cripple RC racing and even traveling to RC races on the other side of the country.

[sim600]

Craps,
What 8000mah batteries are you using? Are they good?

[Craps]

Craps,
What 8000mah batteries are you using? Are they good?

I have the Thunder Power TP8000-2S4P and some are using the MaxAmps 2S8000 that I have ordered a couple to use. 8000 mahs is plenty of battery to get a few minutes of warm up, 20 minutes of racing and some to spare if needed. Alot of our racers only own 1 li-po battery that I know some are over 2 years old that I sold them used. Great batteries!

[sim600]

Craps,
Thanks. I'll look out for them. :)

[Craps]

Just thought I would bring this thread back to the top after ROARs history making decision that will make electric off-road racing popular again and follow the revolution towards brushless and li-po technology and the phase out of brushed and nickel technology!

The future is here and it looks very bright!!!!

[khyron]

Just thought I would bring this thread back to the top after ROARs history making decision that will make electric off-road racing popular again and follow the revolution towards brushless and li-po technology and the phase out of brushed and nickel technology!

The future is here and it looks very bright!!!!


AMEN!

I suspended my participation in the hobby altogether (yes I was a paying ROAR member at the time) in 2006 because I was fed up with not being able to use lipo + brushless technology anywhere I could easily commute to from where I lived. Sold off everything but my tools and my power supply, and figured I'd just wait for a better day in the hobby. The real frustration that drove me away wasn't just my own, but that numerous friends of mine who displayed interest in joining the hobby turned away once they saw the insane expense of brushed + nickel technology versus what online stores and forums (and races in other states) made it clear was safe, cheap, and easy and readily available. I couldn't blame them.

Some serious props should go to those North Carolinian truckers and everyone else who was part of the vanguard of spreading lipo + brushless acceptance over the past few years (including the lipo "faithful" among racers and manufacturers who have actively battled against misinformation and shortsightedness among the world of online R/C discussion forums.). I look towards all those folks in thanks now, because...

...over the past two months, my wife and I have been traveling all over the U.S. as she interviews with residency programs for after medical school. We've been to over a dozen major cities so far and have two more to go before the end of the month. Everywhere we've been, I've tried to investigate the local R/C scene versus what I left only a year-and-a-half ago here in at home and I've been to tons and tons of great tracks - and what I've found has amazed me!

Coast to coast, from the Pacific Northwest to the Southwest to the Midwest to the Northeast and even in New England, I've found amazing track after track after track where the track owners and racers (even many oldschool folks with huge piles of expensive obsolete gear like lathes and turbomatchers) are finally adopting lipo +brushless racing whether ROAR was fully on board yet or not! It seems like more and more folks are finally coming around to the fact that lipo + brushless electric racing is simply the cheapest and easiest way to enjoy this hobby ever created, and these innovations should be embraced not shunned.

Wherever we end up, I know I'm going to be able to get back into the hobby this summer, and I am SO STOKED about that! Thanks to everyone in the industry and racers across the country who has been fighting the "FUD" and changing the minds of the crusty and intolerant among us. Thanks to those on the staffs of the hobby's best magazines for your editorials in support of these innovations in racing. Thanks to those in ROAR who were responsible for creating that amazing exposition class at the offroad nationals last year. Thanks to the vendors who have been hanging in there patiently waiting for our hobby as-a-whole to catch on.

This can only spell good things for the hobby in the future! :)

P.S. anyone who hasn't yet done so should read this important announcement from ROAR (http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/ROAR_General_Lipo_Reader.pdf) right away!

[RoachRacing]

Since not much talk of ROAR is done on this message board I thought I would use this thread to mention that you can now pay for your Registration online via the ROAR website and paypal.

www.roarracing.com

[rccardude04]

I would like to add that it's nice to know that ROAR is not all-powerful. They may not have said "ok" to lipos at the time, but it seemed like most tracks had already allowed the use of brushless and lipos. Apparently they realized they were behind the times and got their act together.
Maybe next time they'll be on the leading edge instead of the trailing edge. ;)
-Eric

[nicholcgn]

I have a couple of things to say.

First I am glad Roar has finally started the lipo process. I know there are reasons that they put some of the limitation but personally I do not like the MAH limit. Limit the volts and let me run 30 min mains if I want. To limit MAH is a waste in my mind. But there are some reasons for it.

For those thinking ROAR is obsolete blah, blah, blah, I think you do not understand the usefulness of a rule set like ROAR from my point of view. They are not meant to be cutting edge. Clubs can override rules at their races and I have never heard of Roar coming down with an Iron fist. The job of ROAR is to place out a set of guidelines to ATTEMPT to have a fair racing field at an event. We all complain about this taking to long but now people are complaining and saying they should resend an approval for another battery that has had some issues. Well which is it? Do they act quickly and do knee Jerk reactions or do the act slower and try to keep things on an even keel.

Also if they approve every new cutting edge idea ASAP how many of us could afford to run a regional even? Let’s face facts racing takes money and the top guys will have the latest gear. Sanctioning Bodies like Roar attempt to keep things once again on an even keel. They will never make everyone completely happy. And it will always look to someone like they are being slighted.

But ask yourself this: How many of you follow roar rules in general? Most of us?

They must not be all that bad. Without something like ROAR you would probably not be running a competitive car against a lot of new friends that you have made at these tracks that generally follow roar rules. Just remember that ROAR is stuck in the middle of a lot of people. Some want the latest now. Some want their equipment to last forever, some want it to only be driver and no technology, and some want you to buy their latest stuff so they make money. Give Roar a break and run for office if you want to change things.

BTW - Does anyone know how well ROAR pays to work for them? If it is free or next to nothing all I can say is they are dang worth every penny we have been paying them and more.

One vote to keep Roar and one thanks for Lipo.

[khyron]

One vote to keep Roar and one thanks for Lipo.

Ditto on both counts. I don't think that many people who really stop to think about how this all works were ever really mad at ROAR about it, as much as they were mad at the FUD'ers and the crusty angry-old-man types who they run into at tracks who used ROAR rules as part of their arguments. Of course ROAR can only be but so quick to adopt and change, if they were too dynamic then organized racing would fall apart (and the vendors would suffer too, actually).

The bottom line is its great to have ROAR "out of the closet" in support of these newer technologies, and its great to see some of the crustier folks out there forced to deal finally. To a young or young-at-heart person entering the hobby who's done their homework and knows what they want, it just doesn't make sense to be forced into a corner by the big piles of expensive gear a couple old dudes have. Sorry haters, but short-lived high-maintenance batteries, lathes, and piles of brushes are going the way of the VHS deck so hey come join us in modern "DVD and Blu-Ray" land (lipo/brushless is actually cheaper if you stop to think objectively!).

It's also good to see all the big name vendors hopping on the bandwagon now too, anyone else notice there's another full page lipo ad in our magazines every month now? :)

[Jeckler]

I have a couple of things to say.

First I am glad Roar has finally started the lipo process. I know there are reasons that they put some of the limitation but personally I do not like the MAH limit. Limit the volts and let me run 30 min mains if I want. To limit MAH is a waste in my mind. But there are some reasons for it.

Can you point out the Mah limit in the rulebook? I'm not saying it's not true, just that I can't find it. What is the limit?

[khyron]

First I am glad Roar has finally started the lipo process. I know there are reasons that they put some of the limitation but personally I do not like the MAH limit. Limit the volts and let me run 30 min mains if I want. To limit MAH is a waste in my mind. But there are some reasons for it.

Can you point out the Mah limit in the rulebook? I'm not saying it's not true, just that I can't find it. What is the limit?


I can't find this either, I've read through the "general lipo reader" document serveral times and even did a text search of the PDF file and the only mention of any mah rating at all is in the description of what constitutes a safe lipo charging environment (as an example of how "safe" a sack or other charge container must be).

Am I missing something?

ETA - I also just went back and read through the entire ROAR 2008 Rulebook, and there are only thirteen mentions of "mah" in the entire thing, every single one of which is related to charge safety and not any sort of "limitation" as far as I can see...

[nicholcgn]

I can't find this either, I've read through the "general lipo reader" document serveral times and even did a text search of the PDF file and the only mention of any mah rating at all is in the description of what constitutes a safe lipo charging environment (as an example of how "safe" a sack or other charge container must be).

Am I missing something?

ETA - I also just went back and read through the entire ROAR 2008 Rulebook, and there are only thirteen mentions of "mah" in the entire thing, every single one of which is related to charge safety and not any sort of "limitation" as far as I can see...



I made an assumption reading 8.3.1.6.3 All Lithium Polymer packs used for motor power must be charged inside a “Lipo Sack”
or similar fire mitigation device proven to withstand a minimum of an 8.4v 5000mah
Lithium Polymer pack failing destructively without showing external flame.

That they would be limitimg them to 5000 mah. I figured if the containment system is only speced for 5000 then they would be limiting the battery to it.

[khyron]

I made an assumption reading 8.3.1.6.3 All Lithium Polymer packs used for motor power must be charged inside a “Lipo Sack”
or similar fire mitigation device proven to withstand a minimum of an 8.4v 5000mah
Lithium Polymer pack failing destructively without showing external flame.

That they would be limitimg them to 5000 mah. I figured if the containment system is only speced for 5000 then they would be limiting the battery to it.


With due respect, and of course with the understanding that I don't write ROAR policy I read it, my interpretation is the reverse - that in determining a safety factor for a charging container some minimum needed to be established (you know, like "you must be this tall to ride"). There seems no "limit" implied in that language to me, YMMV. It's not like people need to be running out to buy branded "sacks" anyway, you can just trot over to the local surplus store and grab an old military ammo box or something and throw some sand in there...good to go.