anyone else think its odd....

[HauntedMyst]

I just got the new issue yesterday and I was excited to read the reviews of the XXX-S and the KX-One. I've seen chizzlers XXX-S up close and to me the plastic its formed out of looks flimsy and flexible. The article agreeded with Chizzler that it is not flimsy, its well made and drives like a dream. It convinced me to get one when they come out the the Bk/Matt Francis/Racer of the day graphite version. (not that I need the upgrades. I, like the raccoon, like the shiny stuff.)

The KX-One on the other hand looks very cool with its odd graphite frame but from what I read in the article, it doesn't handle very well by comparision to the top 3 TC's. What struck me as bizzare was how Kyosho would think they could and should charge $360 for their car, a car which at least here in Chicago, has almost no market share. I base that off the fact that I have never seen one of their TCs being run or available in any hobby shop or recommended by any one at an LHS. That's nearly double the XXX-S!!! I can't understand how an established company like Kyosho can think their no market share car is possibly be worth that kind of money. I assume these guys have run the car and their competitions cars and would want to try and gain more market share before trying to charge a premium for it. Any one have one of these? Do you think it's worth that kind of money or would you rather have 2 XXX-S's?

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[chizzler]

i was astounded by that too!
for that money you can get a tc3 racer kit and an irs or whatever company woven graphite upgrade and still have money left, not to mention the extra parts. :)

the kx-1 looks cool, but it seems to go along that "less is more" theory (by MVDR).
you get less graphite, less car, but pay more for it. And almost nothing is anodized too ;)

[TSR6]

I would rather have 2 XXX-S's LOL

[RichieRich]

HM - Kyosho has a history of seriously overpricing their cars. For example, the Kyosho Ultima RB was listed at $220 at Tower Hobbies just a about a month ago. It has since dropped to $180. Who would plunk down $220 when you could buy a proven B3FT for less? I guess, if you wait, the price should drop to a more reasonable level. I seem to remember the Kyosho Triumph buggy doing the same following the same course.

[HauntedMyst]

Richie,
I remember seeing that too. I think it is a display of arrogance for a company to do that, especially in markets where they are the new comer. Now go one step further, when you have Associated and Losi receiving absolutely glowing reviews on their cars and trucks and the reviews on the Kyosho basically say it's an also ran, I'm shocked they dont try to win the business through lower costs.

chizzler, I agree, they don't even include wheels. The XXX-a comes with wheels, tires and a body!! This whole less in the box thing is getting way out of hand. Clearly customers want those things included in the kit. Associated has said they know some where around 80% of their "Team" vehicles never see a race track so listening to racers about what to include seems silly.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[TSR6]

At my LHS, it seams that the Racer kit & the RTR are more popular. I guess they would rather get the aluminum stuff seperate... most do within a month anyways..lol

[outsider]

I agree the price is out of whack but this is a new design car and they might charge a premium for it like Honda does with the Prelude... I wish I had the issue. maybe it will be at my house when I get home. Also I wonder how they set it up. it has a whole new chassis design and maybe they need more insight onto the car's set up. It's surprising that handling would not be up to par. It has some handling freindly features such as centered battery and one belt drive.

[HauntedMyst]

outsider,
I don't have the article in front of me, but my impressions from reading the XXX-s article was "this is the best car available today, we have no gripes about it, infact we can't say enough good things about it" and then reading the KX-One was "its ok, it goes around the track alright but its squirrely and harder to drive then other current cars."

[outsider]

Hmm, that's odd. Maybe they were put off by the price and let their opinion of what you get for the money get clouded. Or maybe, like I said, it was not set up properly. I mean for $350+ you'd think Kyosho would put enough R&D into the car for superb handling. When I hear AE fanboys talk about Losi cars, they rarely admit its redeeming qualities and vice versa. Who did the XXX-S and KX1 review? Who knows.

Also, Lamborghini's, Ferrari's, and other racing carsare hard to drive too, for the average person...

[chizzler]

those cars you are naming are very different in scale to rc... they may be hard to drive, BUT they win. when was the last time you saw a kyosho TC in rcca in top results?????
take a minute and think amongst yourselves.... :)

[outsider]

To me it says something about RCCA...

[SteveP]

What would that be?

[greg_in_michigan]

LOL. I think someone is offended.... I think he is talking about one sided reviews. I have heard many people say that RCCA gives one sided reviews to cars and products that they test. That is why these people don't subscribe to RCCA. There really are no one sided reviews, because it is all opinion. I'm sure these people may hate the XXX-s or some other car that RCCA has tested but that is because of the way they drive and/or set up and maintain their cars. RCCA guys have their own driving style, and tuning style, and I think that people need to really expirement for themselves so they can see what fits their own driving style, and not someone elses.

I don't have it yet. doh. I will hopefully get it soon...?

[outsider]

To me it's funny when people marvel at AE and Losi cars always winning but when you look at the entries, it's almost all composed or AE or Losi cars. 5 AE cars, 4 Losi, and one random car... hmm i wonder who's going to capture 1st 2nd and 3rd.... They offer great cars at competitive prices. thats why they dominate the races. That and good drivers. I mean, have you looked at 4wd offroad? Everyone has a XX4 and there's the one guy with a cat3000. TC is at least a little more competitive, I see some Tamiya, Kyosho's, HPI's and Schumachers.... and of course the multitude of AE and Losi.

Also, I wasn't commenting on whether the RCCA staff was biased in some way or another but chizzler said "when was the last time you saw a kyosho TC in rcca in top results????? take a minute and think amongst yourselves....". Huh? I took a minute and thought about it. It either means RCCA thinks Kyosho makes sub-competitive cars, RCCA is biased, or RCCA has given Kyosho TC's good marks at some point in time. I think the latter. For example in the Nov2000 issue page 88, Aug2001 issue page 77, and when I get home I can list some other very favorable reviews.

I say wait till RCCA does a head to head comparison with the KX1, XXXS, and TC3 or one of the other big TC's until lambasting a car based on one review. How often do you see a bad review for a movie only to love the movie yourself? Or read a good review and find out the movies sucked. Happens with other things as well.

Personally i think the KX1 is not a good value based on the fact that is does not come with a body, wheels or foams but if it is an easy to maintain car with very good performance, it will meet it's niche and prove itself on its own merits. Or else it won't sell and be discontinued. I'll wait until the verdict is in. I didn't get a XXX-s because I was waiting for this but at the present price point I don't want to get burned. At ~$250 I might have to pick one up.

[DerekB]

Ya, I'm not sure what you mean? That if you build a car according to the directions (like we do all our kits) and test it it shouldn't handle well? We all have our own driving style, but being able to handle a car that doesn't isn't driving style....it's skill. We are all not the best racers, but we have driven just about every car there is and know when a car handles well out of the box and when it doesn't. You don't have to be a racer to know that.

I'm definately not an "Average driver" the KX was a capable car, and the Losi felt incredible out of the box. ANY touring car can be dialed into a track.

As for who wrote it: Pete wrote the article on the KX-1 and Greg did the XXXS. I also commented on the performence on the Losi.

I would like to hear why you think our opinion on a car or performance of a car is less valuable than yours? :confused:

[outsider]

greg, I'm just happy RCCA doesn't give points after a review like lots of computer magazines. Then we'd have uninformed consumers basing their buying decisions on "I'm getting the new SuperTouring Vx-4 because it got 9 and a half stars and the UltraOmega TC10 only got 9 stars".

[outsider]

Well, lets not get defensive, there's no reason for it. Out of context my comment might lead some to think I was bashing RCCA, but read my next post. To me the other posters made it seem as if RCCA ALWAYS rates cars highly based on brand. Any self respecting journalist would (almost) never do this especially when writing a review. But that's it. We don't have to be defensive. It's not like I made fun of anyone's mother :P

[HauntedMyst]

I'm not doubting RCCA's review of either car (I will say that I would like you to numerically rate cars the way you do when you have a shoot out, it adds a lot of value and simplification for me the reader). All reviews are "skewed" somewhat by the reviewer, whether its R/C cars or stereo systems, thats just life. The question is, do you trust and respect the reviewer? I doubt many of us distrust RCCA or we wouldn't hang out on their board. chizzler races at my track and owns every TC ever made it seems and has said the Losi is the best driving car he's ever driven so I don't think the review is "skewed" due to brand reasons, I think they just really liked the car because its a great car.

I'm questioning the manufacturers view of their worth. I can understand Kyosho charging a premium for their Inferno buggies, they won every world championship for the past decade, but lets be honest, their touring cars leave a lot to be desired when viewed from a review/notable race winning perspective. Are they good cars? I don't doubt it for a moment. Do they offer enough extra value to entice a person wanting a new touring car away from Losi or Associated? Perhaps in your book but not in mine, especially when they want nearly twice the price. That's not the review(er)s fault, that's Kyosho's fault for not being price competative enough to grow their TC business.


Losi and Associated throw tons of money into their racing programs so their domination in the winners circle is no surprise. What shocks me is that in every major race, when you look at the "regular guys" running the stock or mod class, you see Schumacher kicking butt, yet I've only ever seen one in person. Here in Chicago there is almost no support for the car yet the car seems to win everything. Is it different in other parts of the country?

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[outsider]

I don't even know of anyone on the board with a Schumacher. But I admire their cars even though I know of only one shop (online) that sells them.

HM, do you think that if Kyosho reduced the price of the KX1 to under $200, it would be a real choice when thinking about a TC car? I do. And as I've said before, the pricing is way out of line and the main reason I will not be getting one for a while. And that's hard to say as the resident kyosho-fanboy.

[chizzler]

im dumfounded about schumacher and kyosho deal too!

(oh, and I, in no part, suggest RCCA is biased in any way - they ARE INDEED professionals in what they do, and that is why they contribute greatly to us, and also me especially. i would have never known of any kits and tricks if it werent for them because of their value of knowledge in rc! granted also, that i have rc'ed by myself for several years now (7), reading every issue of rcca on magazine shelfs before i got a subscription. now ive got the ULTIMATE BB to help when i need quick help :), but i HAVE learned alot about rc just through trial and error)

back to the topic........
though i have had quite a few tc's so far, i have been somewhat "drawn away" from schumacher and definately kyosho. one thing is availability, second is influence (yes, influence :))

the review implying the kx-1 as hard to setup up out of the box REALLY DOES quite detract me from wanting to get one. (i DID like the design when first brought up a few weeks back). this is my opinion, just as the RCCA staff had their own, but my decision is slightly deterred by the fact they did not really like it because the kit was as it seems "rugged" out of the box -- nothing against kyosho nor rcca, but it seems you should start a little "smaller" before diving into the deep end of the pool, as it seems kyosho does.

tc3 kits - such an exceptional value; body, tires, price, availability, flexibility, ready to run, blue, aluminum, graphite, threaded, composite..... the list is sooo endless.

i am a fan of yokomo though, i think their cars are very pure in racing concept with the yr4 series......but they too were overpriced and stuff was unavailable until the recent mr4 tc. what was the dramatic influence? no clue, i guess in the end only time and what people want is what really matters! :) :D

and i feel bad for schumacher, i think their cars were one of the few earlier companies to offer anodized stuff? not sure... whatever, i wish they would come up a little bit more :)

as for me and the xxxs i just got lucky with getting one of the first production kits from my lhs. i wanted it mainly because from spy shots you could tell it was different.... an ENCLOSED/SINGLE BELT with ONE MOLDED CHASSIS. you just cant say no.
that just calls me towards the hobby shelf as though i were under some trance.... :)
im under another spell as of right now, but im gonna wait a while to see what stirs up :)

time to go, i think im going to make everyone snore
:p

[chizzler]

as it stands, kits w/o body, tires,wheels, inserts-

kx-1 highlights:
aluminum shocks
oneway
shielded bearings
philips/allen screws
$349.99

tc3
threaded shocks
graphite
TEFLON bearings
anaodized aluminum stuff
$299.99

pro 3
threaded shocks
composite
rubber sealed bearings
$199.99

i know theres more but this is off the top of my head.... you clearly get a bang for the buck with the tc3, even with those indestructible teflon bearings!!

i can see the kx-1 faring better at its price if it possibly had threaded shocks, but it does come with a one way, i guess you compromise
:p

[RichieRich]

Well, I haven't read the article so I can't comment on it. I was just surprised that Kyosho would price themselves out of reach for a lot of hobbyists. If you want to get people to buy your products and you're up against the AEs and Losis (Losis?) you need to come up with something to make your product more attactive. In this case, the most obvious things would be price OR lots of hop-ups included with the kit.

[HauntedMyst]

Yeah, I think if it was under $200, then it would be a consideration for a lot of people, especially those looking for something different. They have outfitted it with things I look for in a "pro" level car -I personally expect some graphite, aluminum shocks, the one way is nice but I'd like a regular one as well. I also expect a body and wheels and even some tires. Associated does it with their team level kits and even of you don't like the V-Rage, you can just use them for street running and practicing.

[Usagi]

Myst, well the KX-One has been a popular car here these days. The "volt" design is to prevent "flex". Its a nice design, if you like these types of cars.

[outsider]

Other advantages:

KX-One:
One belt system
centered battery (Pro3 also)

Tc3:
comes with motor heatsinks
swaybars

One thing about Tourinfgcars vs. buggies or stadium trucks: under the body TC's are very different from each other. Buggies and STs are very similar. Companies are experimenting with new ideas on TCs right now.... that's why there is so much attention paid to them.