trinity p-94 logical argument

[chizzler]

alright, lets first off keep respective comments out about this topic, because like me, i know what it will turn out tp be.... :p

the other day i was taking apart my motor when i got a flash of something strange. it was like something from a foreign movie with those little clues you have to keep track of in order to understand what is going on :D

anyways, i picked motor arm and behold, i snapped this picture!
we know the p-94 will change modified racing, but could brushless actually be what they are trying to promote. just thought i would show this off and get some more feedback......

http://www.clikshow.com/rc/garages/128-chizzler/p94.jpg
http://www.clikshow.com/rc/garages/128-chizzler/p94a.jpg

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: chizzler ]

[TSR6]

i noticed too... ;)

[chizzler]

i know jeepinator and hauntedmyst will like this....

[DerekB]

I don't think it was a secret that the P-94 is a new motor. Or that the ad had a armature drawing on it. I know what the motor is and it's not a brushless motor. We will post exactly what it is soon. (9-3-01) :rolleyes:

[Oyster]

Check out Horizon Hobby's website. They've listed the P-94 in their catalog. No pics, but from what I've seen, they're using a new brush. I've heard a "square" brush... but who knows? (Ernie)

- jon

[draggerman11]

C'mon Derek, spill the beans! Leak some info! We all want you to :eek: :p

[chizzler]

yeah, i know it obviously was a new motor, but my question is "WHY?" its going to be special and how will it change everyting.....

[draggerman11]

Chiz, it probably wont. Its just Trinitys marketing ways. Thats how they do things, make a bunch of hype for something, then release it.

[chizzler]

OH, is the answer in the new magazine......?
i got it and thats where i scanned the p-94 pic from!
if so i had better find out and start reading! hehehehehe :D

[Mason Copeland]

how can you tell it's a trinity product by the add it does'nt say...

[TSR6]

oh yeah.. Horizon has them listed for $85 ...

I also heard about Trinity Cells...

I also heard something about Sanyo in the mix.. but i am unsure if they go together.

[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: TSR6 ]

[chizzler]

the trinity logo on the bottom right.......

[jeepinator]

Originally posted by Mason Copeland:
how can you tell it's a trinity product by the add it does'nt say...

You can tell by the sheer arrogance of the claim (WE WILL CHANGE MODIFIED RACING FOREVER). Sure they will ... :rolleyes:

Let's see, they already changed stock racing forever (last years propaganda campaign), I guess it's on to modified now ... OH SPARE US !!!

[old phart]

It supposedly is a "large brush" motor. More brush area in contact with the commutator.

Whatever.......... :rolleyes:

[Grizzbob]

Yup, a number of guys on Trinity's BB did some homework & figured it out. It doesn't sound like anything revolutionary, just evolutionary. The word is that it's a variation of the D4 with larger than our old standard brushes, that'll wrap around the comm much like laydown brushes do in a stock.... :)

[HauntedMyst]

yeah, i know it obviously was a new motor, but my question is "WHY?" its going to be special and how will it change everyting.....

Jeep already commented the crux of it, I'll just add.

Why is it going to be special? Because Trinity has 300 AD guys on Macs working with Adobe Illustrator churning out endless streams of marketing nonsense that uses words like "Awesome!" "Dynamic!" "Fabulous!!" "Revolutionary!" "Domination" surrounded by colorful images and pictures of R/C's favorite cherub that catch the lemmings eyes and leads them blindly over the cliff...

:)

[jeepinator]

:D

*jeepinator chuckles with HM*

[draggerman11]

Jeep and Haunted have it right, AGAIN!

[DerekB]

Let's try and reserve any critism until there are some hard facts. You never know what a little R&D will do. From looking at their explaination of what the improvement is, it should be the best brushed motor.

Just like blind statements that they claim, comments like "ya right" "hype" and whatever are just as misleading. :)

[chizzler]

would that mean in theory the have come up with some other material to replace copper comm?? :confused:
wouldn't the brushes wear the comm out even faster is its completely surrounded?

[RichieRich]

Wouldn't a larger brush contact patch = more friction?

HM - cherub...that's about the funniest thing I've read in a while.

[Railman]

It's a Sonic 4! You know with the big com & 5x5 Kyosho brushes. :rolleyes:

[HauntedMyst]

You never know what a little R&D will do.

I agree. A "little R&D" will change the label of a D3.5 to a D4.

A "LOT" of R&D with go from a plain piece of paper and a pencil and some serious thinking to a brand new brushless motor system and a no crystals required receiver...awe poop, I tangented again.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[TUCRACEMAN]

Cherub...*ROTFL* Whew, that's a good laugh.


"Because you're lonely?"

[HowieStern]

ccp'ed from TTT.....

by Jim Dieter, who wrote:
"I thought I should give out a couple facts since everyone is guessing on several other sites. The new mods are available in two forms, full can and vented for other applications. Both carry the stronger fb-9 magnet. They will have a larger brush, but not the 5 x 5 that Mr. Reedy used for awhile. The new dimension is by the book, and the new ad explains it quite well. We ran these at the shootout last week and they perform as we hoped. The other motors are a new 19 turn (chameleon 2) which comes with a com lock in a chrome can, and the P2K 2 which has a different arm. There are a few more surprises at the show, more cars, motors, other things. Stop in and say hello."

have a great day....

peace out.... :)

[outsider]

Hey, HM, I'm one of those guys on a Mac with Illustrator churning out meaningless drivel... er I mean marketing. ;P

[TUCRACEMAN]

Do you use R/c's favorite Cherub?

[HowieStern]

some guys bag on Trinity here.... but not eveyone will like every single brand... it's just their opinion... can't change that...

but, i think a lot of people will be very disappointed finding out that the "Big new future" to mod racing is a fairly normal mod motor with large brushes... Trinity made it up to be something HUGE.... when it's really no big deal... the big brushes may help a bit when you are running a 6 turn motor... but i wouldn't expect to see much of a gain in 10 turns or above.... i guess we'll see when the tests come out on that one...

of course it is Trinity's ad dept's jobs to excite the buying public to their new products... and as we have seen many times, their ad dept does a great job of that... LOL.... better than any other brand.... that helps keep them on top of Reedy, Orion, ect (for sales anyways)....

but in this case, we may very well see a lot of disappointed buyers.... big hype, very little gain in performance....

we'll see i guess...

peace out.... :)

[Interceptor]

Hype or no, why is Trinity consistantly tops in the voters choice issues?

[outsider]

I have a P2K and have found no faults in it. It's not over priced and is a quality stocker. Although some big companies ***cough***<font size=1>Microsoft</font>***cough*** DO take advantage of their huge marketshare ,and ad budget, and give a mediocre product in return at best. But Trinity, I don't think, is one of them. Also we need the big guys to fund the R&D and the little guys can refine the products based on the R&D. It all works out.

[Serius Black]

I guess it's all in how you perceive the ad.

Like I said, Trinity knows that it's going to be under fire if the motor doesn't show significant improvements over the D4 motors. So what if the improvments are in the name of reliability? If a larger brush means less damage to the comm, while still producing power equivalent to the older motors, I'd be thrilled.
Everything is about speed. I've seen sponsored drivers fighting with a mod car because they had too much motor, speed has never been an issue. Run time and reliability are really the only things anyone should be concerned with. I'd rather be able to have a setup that guarantees that I'll make five minutes, or even eight minutes. There are tons of motors on the market that are capable of running faster than any of us can handle skillfully.
I'm pumped about seeing larger brushes, for the simple fact that they'll last longer and be much easier on the comm.

[chizzler]

the thread is finally back on the right track :)
now, back to the question i posed earlier which serious black has just stated, how does a larger brush that covers more of the comm actually make it last longer, wouldnt that mean it would wear faster due to more friction of the brush rubbing against the comm?

[Rick Hohwart]

Big brushes and comms are nothing new. Reedy has had a big comm for some time and Sagami had big brushes before that. At that time every conceivable combination of brush size versu comm size was tried and the general consensus was that the small comm was better - especially in applications that require higher than average efficiency.

I personally was releived to see that this big innovation was something tried previously and proven not to work.

[Serius Black]

I'm assuming that the new motor should be able to run a slightly lighter spring to produce the same amount of power as a conventional brush. Less pressure on the comm equals less wear.
Increased surface area also means that the spring load is distributed across a wider area on the commutator, reducing pressure on just one specific, small area.
Another advantage to a larger brush is that they should run a little cooler, since they've got more "heat sink" area.
I'm guessing that a wider brush is a bit more stable, also, since it rides on the leading and trailing edge of the rotation, not dead in the center. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, I don't think I can explain it much better. Maybe someone with a degree in physics can help me out.

[Serius Black]

I guess we can only wait and see. I'd think that with the advances in battery capacity, motors would have to evolve a little.
I think there's bound to be some opposition in the industry, since motors have become relatively standardized. Everyone has access to the same brushes and springs, for the most part, and they're pretty cheap.
If brushless technology were to gain approval in sanctioned racing, it's going to cause an even bigger uproar. Should be interesting.

[Railman]

I have my own ideas on the effects of bigger brushes vs smaller brushes. I think the reason that it's time for bigger brushes is the evolution of hi cap batts. The new sub 10 turn motors draw huge amp loads which becomes a major factor in durability of the com & brushes. It's just time for a more heavy duty, higher capacity setup. I believe that there is an optimum amount of pressure per sq inch (or at least a small range) for a given brush material, & that they will actually need more spring tension... not less. I do believe that the leadng edge of the brush carries the brunt of the draw though, & is what causes most of the com deterioration. Once the leading edge starts to break down everything else follows due to the arcing. Too light of a brush pressure leads to arcing. I think that most of the brush wear on mods can be attributed to arcing more than to friction. If friction was the issue, then mod brushes would last as long as stockers. The one thing I have to wonder about though is whether a bigger brush will actually cause more heat build up on the com, by having less exposure to open air as a result of the bigger brushes. That exposure to air is what cools them.I would expect the com to get hotter, while the brush would be cooler due to it's bigger heat sink capability. By now I'm probably just talkin to myself, so it's time to stop this babble. Joe

[chizzler]

no thats seems pretty logical ;)

[Grizzbob]

You know, Rick may have hit on something too, he mentioned that the current size of brush seemed best to get good efficiency out of it, but in this day & age few builders really care anything about efficiency(because of the batteries we have today, particularly 3000's). Maybe that's why Trinity has decided to give this a shot, they're maybe trying to get all the power they can , & decided to forget about efficiency(which with a greater current draw & lower efficiency, might make 3000's more neccessary, no?)..... :cool:

[Railman]

The net result will be longer lasting motor with longer lasting performance, without cutting the com, or replacing the brushes. Wouldn't it be cool to have a motor that had the same efficiency of todays, & had 2x the life of todays motors? Joe
:D :D :rolleyes: :cool:

[JP]

This topic got me thinking (uh oh). But then I forgot... :eek:

Although we probably know most of the details and many are criticizing that it will do as advertised, it all doesn't matter much. Who's gonna wait for the new BL motors to come out for a ton of money when your out there getting whooped by some new Trinity motors? The fact is most people, even many that are criticizing (dont know how to spell that word) it are going to wind up buying it. Why? Because the pro at your track is using it!

But theres also another thing to these super modified motors. How many of you can actually control all the power that they're giving? The truth is few people can, and the only thing that the newer motors should be designed to do is increase efficiency so we spend less money and time maintaning them. These crazily fast motors are usually too powerful for most cars/tracks/drivers to handle. So tell the truth, how are any of these high performance mod. motors gonna speed up your driving if you cant drive in the first place? Someones gotta invent a driving aid that punches you in the head every time you make an error. That way everyone can only get better!

Sorry, by the end of this post i dont even remember what the topic was about. Im soooo out of it. Hopefully someone will agree with whatever I just said, cause when i read this tomarrow im gonna be wondering what im on right now... :o <---thats a yawn :P

[DerekB]

I don't think Trinity or anybody (I heard rumors that Reedy will have a motor of the same design soon)would release a motor that didn't improve on the current design. I realize that the big brush is nothing new, but from the ad (not seen yet) it makes sense what the big brushes (not big comm) accomplishes. I can't wait to get it on the dyno.

[maxxxracer]

Railman, your explaining a bl motor.

Personaly I happen to love all the trinity products that I have bought. I do not buy thier products becuase of more advertising than pepsi, I buy it cause it is the best that I can get my greedy little hands on :D.

Now for the P-94. Hmm, larger brushes *ponders for a moment. It should work for the ultra low turn motor but for the motors that dont draw extreme amps i dont see a need. I seriously doubt trinity would even release a new motor if it didnt provide a noticable increase in power or effeciency or some other wonderful thing, its not like them and its not good buisness.

[Serius Black]

I guess I don't understand all of the negativity that you guys shovel on Trinity.
I've been in the hobby for around 22 years, racing most of that time, and my experience with Trinity products has almost always been positive.
Who cares if they've got an ad on every other page in Car Action? They've been around longer than most companies, made money, spent money on R & D and marketing, sold TONS more stuff, and so on...
The P2K motors aren't selling like they do because of marketing hype, they sell because they ARE consistantly the best perfoming motors on the market. I've got one or two each of all the major cans in my pit box, and the Trinity motors are the ones I've found to work best in most conditions.
I shouldn't have to say anything about batteries, Trinity is the primary importer for RC grade Sanyo cells. Chances are, the Sanyo packs you run have passed through Trinity's warehouse at one time or another.
I'm as much a supporter of the "little guy" as most, but if Trinity's huge budget helps come out with a new technology that will make me faster or more efficient, I'm going to buy it. Once something has been proven on a dyno, then on the track, it's time to stop claiming that it's all marketing hype.
It's funny that everyone whines about how awful Trinity is, then turns around and buys a P2K or D4 with a Pro-Match or Fantom label slapped on it.
If you want to see more innovative, high tech stuff at reasonable prices, you need companies like Trinity, Novak, Losi, and Associated. Mom and Pop operations don't have the resources to come up with this stuff and sell at reasonable cost. Look at slot car motors. The local slot track has racing motors selling for nearly $300! That's because they're produced by a small company that has to make them one at a time.
If the P-94 is an evolution of the current motors, so be it. It WILL change mod racing forever if the larger brushes become standard in the industry. I'm sure there's a good reason for the change, not just a marketing gimmick as some of you seem to think. If Car Action throws one of these new motors on a dyno and can't tell the difference between a P-94 and D4, you'll know about it. And Trinity knows this. They also know how picky serious racers are, and know that these things will be thrown on a dyno within an hour of the first release.
Without turning this in to another WTO riot, tell me WHY you have such a problem with Trinity. Not what you've heard other people whining about on forums, but why YOU personally feel so violated by thier business practice. Maybe I'm missing something.

[DerekB]

(golf clap)

[Railman]

Actually, what I'm refering to has brushes. It's just different. Joe

[rcracer_xxxt_futaba]

Someone asked "how do u know if it is trinity?" Well on the bottom left of the picture on the first page there is the trinity logo, like 3 att things.

[Rick Hohwart]

Bigger brushes will more than likely require a heavier tension spring. And unless the brush shunts are doubled there is no real current flow improvement by just increasing the contact area of the brush. Added material does not really make the brush cool better. If the brush used the same contact area and then had more surafce area this would be ture. But the extra material is just cooling the extra surface contact area making things eqaul out. The main problem with this design is the added friction. The P-94 will have brushes twice as big (doubling the friction per revolution) plus a commutator with twice(?)the circumference (doubling it again)so even if the motor does produce more power it will have to more than overcome this added friction.

[outsider]

Can someone explain how a brushless motor works exactly? How does electricity get transferred to the armature if there are no brushes on a commutator?Some sort of very close elements that can transfer electricity over miniscule distances for zero friction? Or does it involve superconductive materials? Is there a faq somewhere? Thanks in advance.[/LIST]

[DerekB]

The P-94 doesn't use a large comm! It's a new brush sizes that is designed to optimize performance and reduce "cogging" (that's from the ad).

A brushless motor is like an electro magnet. It alternates tha magnetic field around the comm to get movement.

[T3_Racer]

The way a BL motor "moves" persay is by using electro-magnetic inductance. Electro-magnectic inductance is the process in which one body, having electrical or magnetic polarity, causes or induces it in another body without direct contact. This means if you run an ocillating current (i think) through an electromagnect very rapidly the poles of the magnet will switch causing atrraction and replusion to turn the armature. This is a very short statement of what really goes on and im sure someone could explain it much better but Im 15 and trying my hardest. :p
I hope this helps and if I am wrong someone please tell me.

[Grant Tokumi]

Outsider,
I had the same question as you when I first heard of brushless. How does current get to the armature if no brush is there? I found the answer when I inspecting a ceiling fan motor. A brushless is like an inverted brushed motor. In a brushless motor, the coils are actually on the can, and the permanent magnet (assuming it still uses a permanent magnet) is on the armature. The current never has to travel to the armature, so no brushes are required. This is opposite from a brushed motor where the coils are on the armature and the permanent magnets are on the can. You need to get current to the spinning coils on the armature so thats where the brushes come into play.

Anyways, thats what I've concluded just by observing an open ceiling fan motor. I could be wrong. It seemed to address my curiosity on why they don't need brushes.

[outsider]

GT, you know something, if thats the way it works, it makes perfect sense! Why aren't all manufacturers making brushless motors? The concept seems sound and is already being used in the real world. Interesting.

[HowieStern]

that's the way they work...

so why aren't they popular??

1. cost

2. they have a different "powerband"... the current crop of BL's work great in airplanes, but are a true handful to drive in an RC car....

3. the dominant motor makers have not ventured into that territory yet... they are making plenty of money from selling extra brushes and arms...

can't wait for the chicago show.... i sure hope Novak is taking orders for their BL!! hopefully they have the control issue fixed, and will be producing a great motor, with nearly zero upkeep...

peace out... :)

[Serius Black]

Rick -

You're the expert, so I'll take your word for it. The P-94 should be a dog. Got it.
I just hope that brushless technology catches on soon in the industry, then we can do away with the whole brush and spring thing alltogether. Should really weed out the motor tuners, eh? Seems like the only possible evolution, since brushed motors have reached thier apex. :p
I still believe that the larger brush and comm ought to help with torque, should last longer, run a little cooler, etc...
Other than just being a larger chunk of metal, the increased surface area of the brush would contact a larger brush hood. That larger brush hood may be able to accomodate a true heat sink? Just speculation, I'm done with the subject. Nobody on the outside really knows what's up, or how a combination of old and new technologies might add up. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Serius Black ]

[Serius Black]

Howie -

Aveox has had a system out for a couple of years intended for 6 cell car use. Car Action used two motors and speed controls in a project Clod a while back, they didn't seem to have much trouble with control. Other than complaining about the amount of wires, it seemed as though they loved it.
The Novak system should be great, hopefully it'll have some of the features as thier high-end speed controls. I've been anticipating the release since I first heard they were working on a system. I know they won't be legal in sanctioned racing for a while, but our club will probably allow them right away.

[maxxxracer]

has any one here heard of http://www.gtdodd.demon.co.uk/ (http://modeltech) ? They make bl motors for every car truck or Mt you can think off including the emaxx.

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: maxxxracer ]

[ChumsGum]

My guess is a 3 brush motor. Would that work? 2 + and 1 - or 1 - and 2 +.

[jeepinator]

Serius Black,
as a person who has owned brushles motors for about 6 years and have had them in several kits, I can tell you they are exceptionally difficult to drive.
I theorized in a previous post (few months ago) that the reason for the delay of the Novak BL system is this very reson. They will have to work very hard on the software (in the controllers) to get driveability into these motors.
I just searched for like an hour for the very long post explaining why (I understand the technology fairly well), but could not find it ! :(
The best analogy I can think of is a machine gun ... a brushed motor is like autofire. You apply voltage, it rotates, the rotation force stops but inertia keeps it rotating until the poles flip and then the process starts over. You do not need to manage the rotation, only the application of power.
A brushles motor is like semi-auto, whereby the controller must be cognizant of armature position and fire the coils accordingly. So, when you request X percent throttle, it must assume a few things and fire the coils at a certain rate. BUT it must not fire them too fast or it will outpace the armature and torque will be lost. That is what the Hall Effect sensor is for, to give feedback to the controller as to the arm's position.

Oh, boy too hard to explain, and I am far too lazy ... I wish I could find my other post, dangit !

I really should just save all my big posts on my website and then just recall them later. The search engine is sooo dang restrictive.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: jeepinator ]

[Railman]

Jeep, Made perfect sense! Thanks! ;)

[HowieStern]

yo black.... i have driven one vehicle with the aveox.... an E-maxx that had two of them installed... it had tons of power no doubt, but ran really "funny", and the brakes were horrible... it's like it took a second to spool up, then you got the full load of power... kinda a delayed reaction to the throttle, but once it came on the pipe it felt like a nitro engine with a T-06 turbo on it.... LOL... sure fun to play with, but dern hard to put in fast laps with.... the extra weight of the E-maxx may have made the brakes feel much worse than they actually are...

so really, as long as the Novak puts out more power than a decent 19 turn mod, has a very drivable powerband (good low, mid and top with quick responce), and good brakes, i will be on Very happy camper to own one.... but if they run like those light switch aveox motors, i can live without 'em...

also... our track is ready and waiting for them in our mod classes with open arms.... you can't use all the power that a decent 12x2 puts out at our track anyways, so if the BL's put out more power than that, it won't really be any advantage to them....

peace out... :)

[Serius Black]

I'm confident that Novak will have worked all the "bugs" out before they release thier system. I've driven a boat with a Aveox system, it was extremely smooth, had tons of power, and was extremely efficient. Since boats obviously don't use brakes, I have no experience there.
There's a guy on another forum that's been running a brushless setup in his rally car, he can't say enough good things about it. Great power, long run times, very little maintenance. Never heard any complaints about the brakes. The system is not made by Aveox, I can't remember the name.

[outsider]

I think the bigger advantage, besides power, will be runtimes, less maintenence, and longer lasting motors. We all want better runtimes, with out changing brushes after every 5 runs right? That alone will be a huge reason to go BL.

[tarheelquality]

Hey maxxracer that link did not work. Could you check it and repost it. thanks.

[Usagi]

I a a bit confused? Can some one expalin to me what is the P-94 is about? I am in the dark about this. :(

[HowieStern]

the P-94 is Trinity's new line of mod motors.... they are about like normal mod motors, but use a slightly larger brush size...

peace out... :)

[maxxxracer]

tarheel. I just tested it and your right it doesnt. You have to copy and paste it. It might be becase of the question mare next to it but who know. I will try and fix it.

[DerekB]

P-94 on our homepage.
www.rccaraction.com (http://www.rccaraction.com)