Team Orion 3200mAh Carbon Edition Race Spec LiPo

[PeterV]

http://209.2.68.15:8011/pics/lipo01.jpg

http://209.2.68.15:8011/pics/lipo02.jpg

http://209.2.68.15:8011/pics/lipo03.jpg

Here's your first look at Orion's newest LiPo pack. The case has a humped design that emulates a side-by-side sub-C pack for a perfect fit in most cars. Kokam cells are inside the carbon-look case, and even though the pack is rated for 3200mAh, you can expect capacity comparable to a 4300 NiMh pack.

Official press release:

Because of the continuing success of the Platinum 4800 LiPo battery, Team Orion has gone back to the drawing board and created a version designed specifically for competition applications. The all-new Carbon Edition LiPo 3200 mimics the actual run times of today’s most popular competition NiMH cells, despite its lower capacity.

The Carbon Edition’s unique shape allows installation in vehicles that accept stick packs. Additionally, molded bumps along the battery’s underside lock it into position when used in slotted touring car chassis.

Features:
• 20C rated Kokam/Team Orion SLPB cells provide the safest output charge after charge
• Low IR, 3200 mAh capacity provides up to 40% longer run times than NiMH equivalents
• At 6.6 ounces, it is less than half the weight of a 6-cell NiMH battery
• 7.4V SLPB Kokam cells in a 2S-1P configuration paired with Team Orion’s exclusive PCB interface provides the lowest loss connection available with industry leading protection against damage
• Twisted gold plugs with Tamiya style connector allow for easy installation
• Cell balancing port
• Attractive carbon look case
• Excellent option for today’s high-performance 3D helicopters

ORI14001 Carbon Edition 3200 LiPo Battery Pack $119.99
<BR><BR>

[metalry101]

So what's the advantage? Less weight is nifty, but is this less expensive than the 4800? A lot less?

[Dan-o]

MSRP? street?

[jocktheglide165]

no way dude that rocks.....dang it now I want my lipos back...

[tmacfan4321]

naw you want your bashing lipos, none of the carbon crap
im all for the look though

[jocktheglide165]

i dont understand it saids 3200mah, but it has same capacity of 4200nimh?

[ryanD]

i dont get that in the middle on the bottom is flat for battery straps, if you put it in up side down how will you get to the plugs? :confused: :rolleyes:

I took the line out about the "flat for a strap" thing. It can't be flat for that reason, per your very logical observation. I suspect the humps are not full-width simply because they don't have to be in order to locate the pack within the battery slots. --Pete

[tmacfan4321]

you would think that some engineering would be envolved with the making of this pack

[EvaderRacer76]

SWEET!!! I hope it is a lot lighter (and cheaper) than the 4800...then I'll be sold..

[metalry101]

i dont get that in the middle on the bottom is flat for battery straps, if you put it in up side down how will you get to the plugs? :confused: :rolleyes:
Ya, that is weird. It probably has the bumps on the bottom so that when it's placed in a sedan with a carbon fiber plate chassis with cutouts, it positions itself correctly, and stays in place more easily. At least that'd be my assumption.

[GordonFreeman]

We use about 1200 mAh for 5 minutes on our indoor dirt (http://www.rcperformance.com/) , high traction dirt. ROAR is a bunch of @#$$^s, let it go already. Sub-Cs are dead.

Plus MaxAmps has reasonably priced LiPos. Shop around.

[jocktheglide165]

SWEET!!! I hope it is a lot lighter (and cheaper) than the 4800...then I'll be sold..
man how light do you want it? LOL I thought the lipos were light enough.....

[chilly4kc]

Looking at the new case design, I see they put the balancing port on the top now. Maybe too many drivers were getting dirt in the port when it was on the bottom and the pack was used in a touring car?

I also talked to Orion support last week and they said they are making a balancer but it was going to be about a year before that came out yet. Maybe putting the port on top is to make it work better with their balancer?

[___rollin___]

The price should be about even with this pack (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLPD4&P=7) considering it's the same kokam cells, and same configuration. But a little more of course because of the fancy case. They (the pack I linked)were about $100-110 before, so expect 120+ to be normal for these.

[kvector]

As you can see, the humps are flattened in the pack's middle, so your T4 or Triple-X battery strap (or cars and trucks with similar hold-downs) can still be used.How do you access the plugs if you put it in upside down?


Kokam cells are inside the carbon-look case...
:rolleyes: It's basically a sticker or screen printing on the outside of the plastic, just like Orion's charger. Almost looks like it will be heavier with all the extra shaped plastic molding in the case design, or is this intended to actually be a stronger or more durable case (like something that can help the lipos survive a high speed crash)?

[NiMo]

i dont get that in the middle on the bottom is flat for battery straps, if you put it in up side down how will you get to the plugs? :confused: :rolleyes:

The humps are to fit in the battery slots on the chassis (like your current NiMh pack), you can the hold it in the same way as your normal NiMh pack without is sliding out the side of the car.
This is something we have requested over at another forum site, along with a rounded shaped so it can fit more cars without modification.

[chilly4kc]

I have the Orion 4800 and it works great in my T4 with the carbon fiber strap, but it doesn't work well with my Trinity blue aluminum battery brace since the brace has grooves in it for C cells. It looks like I might be able to use that Trinity brace again with this pack.

But I also ran into issues when I tried to install the 4800 into my TC4. However, this new pack design looks like it will eliminate that issue too.

The humps on the bottom will fit snuggly into the cutouts on the bottom of the chassis that is normally used to allow the C cells to sit into them. So now these humps will fit into that perfectly (most TC have these cutouts now).

The top of the case it sunken in too, so that will make the battery strap fit better too since it has grooves in it to fit snuggly against a C cell pack.

So I can see why they made these changes. This pack design will fit into more RC vehicles now. And the more applications they can fit these pack into the more people will run them, and the more they will become accepted.

The only thing I don't understand is why they lowered the mah from 4800 to 3200? Maybe they are trying to get this approved by ROAR and they want to match the runtime of the best 4200 NiMh to keep things more fair? Kind of like running brushed and BL together?

Of course, the lipo is 7.4v and not 7.2v so it will always have a little more punch to it. :D

[micros_rock]

Rick said 80-90 for the price.

[JakeE]

It seems these are newer cells than those currently being used in the 4800 pack. This pack is a 2s1p whereas the 4800 is a 2s2p. The 4800 pack is rated for 15C continuous, 20C burst - if this new pack is rated similarly that would only be 48A continuous, 64A burst. Hopefully these are at least 20C continuous cells. It's a nice idea, I wonder how long before manufacturers start designing chassis' with LiPos in mind.

[JCSS]

So is this pack a 3200, or a 4300?? Are they just understating capacity to overstate discharge? Why not just state true capacity and discharge?

[JakeE]

So is this pack a 3200, or a 4300?? Are they just understating capacity to overstate discharge? Why not just state true capacity and discharge?

The bit about 4300 NiMH mAH equivalency is probably targeted towards the bigger is better crowd.

My understanding is the higher the discharge capability of the cell, the lower the IR the cell has. Thus, a higher rated cell will maintain higher voltage under load and therefore require less amps to perform the same job which equates to more efficient use of available capacity.

I may be completely wrong on this so please correct me if that is the case.

[Rick Hohwart]

They are 20C continuous.

The rated capacity is 3200. But due to a LiPo's effeciency, this capacity translates to actual run times that are at least equal tot hat of NiMH cells with capacities of 4300 mAH

[JCSS]

So what you are saying is, if i dicharge that pack at 1C, 3.2 amps, it will only put out 3200 mah?

[Rick Hohwart]

Capacity is capacity. It does not change. A 3200 will always have less capacity than a 4200, regardless of construction

Imagine a 3200 unit "tank" full of LiPo draining to the motor though a solid pipe. A 4300 unit "tank" full of NiMh drains to the motor thorough a porous pipe. The motor sees the same amount of each because one loses much more on the journey to its destination. In reality, the loss is due to internal resistance, which surfaces as heat.

This is also true when comparing NiMH. A cheap generic stick pack with 3700 mAh cells holds the same capacity as a pack of GP3700s. But in no way do they perform equally, even though though they are the "same". The chape packs gets hotter with less duration and less power.

[JCSS]

So your new 3200 mah pack, which only has 3200 mah, puts out more current, and also runs longer than a 4300 mah ni-mh that has over 25% more capacity. I think i get it now.

[ryanD]

The humps are to fit in the battery slots on the chassis (like your current NiMh pack), you can the hold it in the same way as your normal NiMh pack without is sliding out the side of the car.
This is something we have requested over at another forum site, along with a rounded shaped so it can fit more cars without modification.


i know what te humps are there for, but they left the middle of the pack flat for a stap, but you cant put it in upside down since the plugs are on the top.

[Rick Hohwart]

i know what te humps are there for, but they left the middle of the pack flat for a stap, but you cant put it in upside down since the plugs are on the top.

You will never need to put it upside down. The pack will always be installed humps down, off-road cars included. Even installed this way, the overall height of the battery is very close to that of a side by side or stick pack.

If you were to install it upside down, the flat center would sit far below the height of the strap.

[Rick Hohwart]

So your new 3200 mah pack, which only has 3200 mah, puts out more current, and also runs longer than a 4300 mah ni-mh that has over 25% more capacity. I think i get it now.

Yes. It is capable of this because LiPo batteries operate more efficiently than NiMH batteries.

[fuzzychickens]

We use about 1200 mAh for 5 minutes on our indoor dirt (http://www.rcperformance.com/) , high traction dirt. ROAR is a bunch of @#$$^s, let it go already. Sub-Cs are dead.

Plus MaxAmps has reasonably priced LiPos. Shop around.

You can't expect roar to allow these batteries yet. We have to follow the natural progression for superior (and cheaper in the long run) technology.

First, you have to have a propaganda ad from Trinity about how these batteries are just "snake oil" and will never live up to their claims. We'll be told why it's better for us to buy nimh race packs from trinity (at 70 bucks) that last half a season if you're lucky.

Then a time period in which bashers and beginners buy nothing but lipo batteries for awhile. Slowly, new racers that start showing up at local race tracks around the country (former newbies and bashers) wanting to race are told they need to buy old tech batteries to compete. Of course this won't bring in any new racers. Roar will have to adjust to where the market is heading and allow them.

Of course roar could just think ahead and make them legal now and adjust the rules as needed. Fat chance of that.

[jocktheglide165]

is one lipo the same as another lipo? Kinda like the question of GP300 vs another brand of 330mah everyone does not questins GP due to brand and history...

[JCSS]

So just what do you mean by this RH? "LiPo batteries operate more efficiently than NiMH batteries"

Does efficient mean lower internal resistance?

[tmacfan4321]

the voltage of the lipo battery stays at 7.4 volts longer than an nimh stays at 7.2
i dont know why but it just does

[micros_rock]

is one lipo the same as another lipo? Kinda like the question of GP300 vs another brand of 330mah everyone does not questins GP due to brand and history...
Once sometime figures out to match them, then no.

[jocktheglide165]

Once sometime figures out to match them, then no.
i thought you didnt need to match them? only balance them?

[rampal]

I have a question: I'm happy with the 4800 pack, although I'm not sure, but is this one (3200) more efficient than the 4800?? I wonder on purchasing another 4800 or wait till this one comes available.

cheers,

[Rick Hohwart]

So just what do you mean by this RH? "LiPo batteries operate more efficiently than NiMH batteries"

Does efficient mean lower internal resistance?

Yes.

[Rick Hohwart]

is one lipo the same as another lipo? Kinda like the question of GP300 vs another brand of 330mah everyone does not questins GP due to brand and history...

There will be the same differences in brands and models just like there are with any other type of battery.

This is actually one of the disturbing trends I see in LiPo threads. I see a lot of "look at these packs you get more capacity for a better price". And in many cases these statements are true. But batteries of equal capacites do not perform the same. If you are familiar with GP4300 and IB 4200 NiMH cells, you will know what I mean.

[Rick Hohwart]

I have a question: I'm happy with the 4800 pack, although I'm not sure, but is this one (3200) more efficient than the 4800?? I wonder on purchasing another 4800 or wait till this one comes available.

cheers,

There really is no difference in efficiency. The components are basically the same, only the capacity is different. You have to look at price and capacity when making your decision. With the 3200, you will pay less, but get less run time.

[JCSS]

So what is the IR of the new Orion 3200's? The IB 4200's have really low IR's.

And will the Orion 3200's run longer than Max Amps 6000's?

[Rick Hohwart]

I can't give an exact figure, but MUCH lower IR than IB NiMH cells. I am not familiar with the Max Amps 6000, but chances are it will not run longer. But it may very well run better (faster) and last longer.

[JCSS]

How do you know the IR is lower if you don't know the exact figure? Sorry if that is a stupid question, just wondering. And if the IR is much lower with the Orion 3200, why wouldn't it run longer than the Max Amps 6000 which is a cheap pack and would probably have a somewhat higher IR?

[Rick Hohwart]

Because the IR of a LiPo is inherently lower than that of a NiMH. There is a big difference between 3200 mAh and 6000 mAh. Even with a difference in IR, it likley will not make up for the difference in capacity.

[jocktheglide165]

Are the IRs on the 4800 same as this pack? if they are then why cant we say the pack of 4800 is same as a 6000mah nimh?

[JCSS]

Now I understand, the IR in all li-po's are much lower than ni-mh's. I wonder how many ni-mh mah my Max Amps 6000 mah pack is equal to- 8000, 10,000 mah ni-mh?

[khyron]

Now I understand, the IR in all li-po's are much lower than ni-mh's. I wonder how many ni-mh mah my Max Amps 6000 mah pack is equal to- 8000, 10,000 mah ni-mh?

That's not really a question that can be simply answered because whenever you're comparing batteries which are composed of completely dissimilar cell technologies, you're going to see a lot of other variables coming into play.

For example, if you compare a given NiMH pack to a given lipo pack at a discharge rate of 20C (different amps for different packs, the ratio being the constant in the experiment) you're going to see one sort of performance differential.

However, if you compare that given NiMH pack to that given lipo pack at a much higher dischrage rate (at least at certain peaks) you might see another kinds of performance differential entirely.

I don't see folks pointing it out in this thread, and maybe that's because the Orion guys are trying to be sportsmanlike, but I'll just throw it out there - not all lipo cells are created equal, not by a long shot. There are some out there that vendors are only willing to rate for rather conservative discharge rates that might not be appropriate for some forms of extreme modified R/C surface vehicle racing. On the other hand, there are also some out there that the vendor feels confidant recommending for even brutal (in terms of current draw) R/C use.

Similarly, there's the packaging issue to look at. Physical packaging is very important to all chemical batteries, whether they're sub-C or prismatic. We saw important quality differences in packaging in our old sub-C cells of various generations, and we're seeing it in the lipo world already. This is another big differentiating factor.

When talking about lipos and "value" for your dollar, it's important to not leave out these two differentiators - physical durability and discharge capability. You see capacity talked about all over the place, and the numbers are huge on the label, but these factors are just as important, and definitely make up a part of the real "value" equation.

[rc addict]

The pack is 3200nimh instead of 4800nimh because some local tracks that hold club racing limit the capacity as high as 3800mah for example. But if its legally 3200nimh, but provides somewhere around 4300 nimh, this pack will be great for all types of racing, both club and higher

[austinelse]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would jump in and clear a few things up. A 6000mah pack will supply longer runtime than a 3000mah pack. There is no "magic" here. The capacity of the pack is what it is. If it says 4000mah then it will put out 4000mah of capacity or 1 hour or runtime at 4 amps. A 3000mah pack would put out 1 hour of runtime at 3 amps.

The packs are also going to have another rating associated with them. That is the "C" rate. It is the maximum amount of amp draw that the pack can handle. I can not speak for Orion. For our MaxAmps packs the rating is based on a constant "C" rate and a burst "C" rate. We use very conservative numbers for our packs because the higher the amp draw is on the pack, the lower the number of cycles you will get out of the pack.

The other issue that you should be concerned with when comparing apples to apples is the weight of the pack vs. the capacity of the pack. As you can see on our website, the weight/capacity of the MaxAmps pack is very, very good. In fact our 6000mah pack is equal to or less than the Orion 4800. This is due to lighter cells and not having the plastic case around the cells.

We have found that putting a plastic case around the cells can cause the cells to get hotter than they would without it. As we all know, heat equals lost performance.

We also include a balancer tap on the cells that will allow you to use the Hyperion LBA6 balancer or other balancers on the pack to keep the cell in the pack equal in voltage. If the cells go out of balance then it can cause damage to the cells and will eventually cause the pack to fail.

Hope that helps clear up things.

Best Regards,

Austin

[Jev]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would jump in and clear a few things up. A 6000mah pack will supply longer runtime than a 3000mah pack. There is no "magic" here. The capacity of the pack is what it is. If it says 4000mah then it will put out 4000mah of capacity or 1 hour or runtime at 4 amps. A 3000mah pack would put out 1 hour of runtime at 3 amps.


If you are discharging the pack in one hour that might be the case. But if you are discharging the pack in 5mins the IR come into play and affect how much of that 4000 or 6000mah the motor gets to see.

EG say you ran a stock motor with the Orion 3200 you would get less top speed AND probably less runtime than an IB4200 nimh pack. But if you ran a 6t modified the 3200 lipo would beat the nimh in every respect. Because the lipo will deliver the high amps more efficiently.

Yes you did hear me right, lipo are slower with stock motors than a good freshly charged nimh pack.

[Micke_b]

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNMF9&P=7

$89,99 at towers.


anyone know if it can be charged over 1C?

[austinelse]

Jev,

I undestand what you are saying, but the IR of the cell is built into the capacity numbers of the cell depending on how the capacity is determined. The only way to actually compare apples to apples with lithium polymer cells is using a discharge graph.

In your example, I dont think that the IB 4200 would ever give you less runtime than a 3200 lipoly pack at any amp draw due to the IR of the pack. The IR of the 3200 lipoly and the IB 4200 are both similar enough to avoid a 1000mah gap due to lost energy.

The real differences between the two packs is two fold. The weight of the lipoly pack should be less than half the weight of the NIMh pack. That should allow you to power the vehicle with less watts and in turn give you more run time. The other difference would be that the lipoly may hold higher voltage under load than the NIMH and therefore require less average amp draw to power the vehicle.

Hope that makes sense :)

Best Regards,

Austin

[JCSS]

Jev, from first hand experience, Li-po's are faster with everything, from the first yank of the trigger. At least good li-po's are. If you are using junk cells, perhaps not. They are mainly faster with stock motors because of weight. And true, with stock motors, there isn't such a marked difference. On hot mods, the difference is much larger. But yet, with a decent quality li-po, one better than a Max Amps for example, the difference is there.

[Jev]

Jev,

I undestand what you are saying, but the IR of the cell is built into the capacity numbers of the cell depending on how the capacity is determined. The only way to actually compare apples to apples with lithium polymer cells is using a discharge graph.

In your example, I dont think that the IB 4200 would ever give you less runtime than a 3200 lipoly pack at any amp draw due to the IR of the pack. The IR of the 3200 lipoly and the IB 4200 are both similar enough to avoid a 1000mah gap due to lost energy.

The real differences between the two packs is two fold. The weight of the lipoly pack should be less than half the weight of the NIMh pack. That should allow you to power the vehicle with less watts and in turn give you more run time. The other difference would be that the lipoly may hold higher voltage under load than the NIMH and therefore require less average amp draw to power the vehicle.

Hope that makes sense :)

Best Regards,

Austin

Ok I was exagerating the difference, but if you don't think higher rate of discharge or higher internal resistance reduces the capacity output check any of the graphs here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342568

[Jev]

Jev, from first hand experience, Li-po's are faster with everything, from the first yank of the trigger. At least good li-po's are. If you are using junk cells, perhaps not. They are mainly faster with stock motors because of weight. And true, with stock motors, there isn't such a marked difference. On hot mods, the difference is much larger. But yet, with a decent quality li-po, one better than a Max Amps for example, the difference is there.

All the bike racers have found lipos to be slower with stock. Most use kokam 3200(same as this orion pack).

Sure if you let the nimh settle over night after charging it wont be any different. But charge a pack at 6amps and put it in you car and go straight out and race and you will see the extra voltage in action.

[JCSS]

i've only tried my Tanic 5000 in stock, it saves about 4 oz, and holds a LOT higher voltage under load than my SMC 4200's. You should try them if you want to see what fast is in stock.

[John Stranahan]

I have done some testing of a Lithium Cobalt Dioxide Polymer pack ballasted to weight the same as a NiMH of similar capacity and with almost identical voltage vs discharge time curves over 5 minutes at 20 amperes. In stock touring car the LiPo cell had a distinct advantage for about 5 laps then it felt the same as the NiMH pack. Both cells are fastest right off the charger. In mod, also ballasted to the same weight, the LiPo always runs significantly better for the whole run. It has more punch and more top speed in the touring car. Almost like dropping one turn on the motor. I suspect though that if I was able to run a discharge test at 45 amps on both batteries the LiPo would have a higher average voltage. I have also tested a Lithium Manganeese LiPo and it is similarly fast in mod with a voltage curve very similar to the Lithium Cobalt Dioxide Polymer pack. The Orion packs don't fit my JRXS or I would have tried one of those.

When you test a battery the test instrument does not measure any internal leakage in the capacity. I do see that you might use less throttle with the LiPo ( I think it puts out more voltage at high amps than a NiMH) thus exaggerating its capacity. I also see that a battery might have a different capacity at a higher discharge rate beyond what our normal T35 might be able to measure. I need to look at the graphs Rick posted on another thread some more.

This graph (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=455981) that Jev linked to above shows a capacity variation from approximately 2500 to 2300 mA-h as the discharge current is increased on a LiPo.

[WJ Birmingham]

This graph (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=455981) that Jev linked to above shows a capacity variation from approximately 2500 to 2300 mA-h as the discharge current is increased on a LiPo.

You should note that the graphs you are linking to are over a year old, and show old technology batteries not even capable of 10C. Today's Li-Mn and Li-Co are capable of 20C+ and are on par or exceeding Nickel technology's abilities. It's about the same as trying to compare a Pentium 1 to a Pentium 4.

You should also note that with Ni-Mh and Ni-Cd, as current (C) increases, capacity decreases as well. It's not like the decrease in capacity is ONLY with one technology.

2500 mAh is 2500 mAh, and you'll get 2500 mAh unless you significantly surpass the ability of the cell, in which part of the 2500 mAh is dissapated in the form of heat as the cell tries to lower internal resistance to raise voltage. The only way keep from that occurring is to significantly raise the capacity of the cells so that the amp load per mAh is reduced, thus allowing a higher voltage under load. This significant increase in capacity to reduce cell loading is the only thing allowing the 'generic' packs to live in applications where they wouldn't normally be used.

[John Stranahan]

I agree that the NiMH might show a similar tendency as to loss of capacity at higher current drain. I don't have a graph or data to show this. What I would like to see is a graph with both a NiMH and LiPo at 45 ampere discharge. I think the LiPo would have a higher voltage. No mysterious forces are at work improving the performance of the mod motor for the LiPo just more voltage at the higher amp rates. I checked the very recent graphs that Rick provided from Eagle Picher Kokam (http://press.team-orion.com/press/avionics/kokam_quality.pdf) which are the cells that Orion is using. They have the same tendency. A 740 mA-h cell has 750 mA-h at 1 C and only 650 mA-h at 25 C.

[JCSS]

JS. I don't see why you would want to add weight to the Li-po pack. Why reduce one of it's advantages? Some say it's to maintain weight distribution, but on track, handling is rarely reduced because of the lighter weight, and in most cars, they actually drive Better.

[John Stranahan]

The only reason I added weight was to see what the advantages of the LiPo would be in a racing class that allowed both LiPo and NiMH. Undoubtedly There would be a minimum weight limit that did not favor the LiPo. I did test the LiPo in stock without the extra huge 7 ounce ballast. It is definitely faster for the whole pack when run in a lightweight trim. In my JRXS in mod on a high speed outdoor track, I have been adding some weight lately just to make the front motor car handle better. On the next JRXS rear motored chassis this may not be neccesary.

[Jev]

When you test a battery the test instrument does not measure any internal leakage in the capacity. I do see that you might use less throttle with the LiPo ( I think it puts out more voltage at high amps than a NiMH) thus exaggerating its capacity. I also see that a battery might have a different capacity at a higher discharge rate beyond what our normal T35 might be able to measure. I need to look at the graphs Rick posted on another thread some more.

This graph (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=455981) that Jev linked to above shows a capacity variation from approximately 2500 to 2300 mA-h as the discharge current is increased on a LiPo.

At what amps did you charge the nimh packs and how long did you leave the pack before using it? To get the highest performance you need to charge at 6 or 7 amps and then start the race as soon as possible. I would try to have only 1 or 2 minutes resting time.

I often see people who bench test cells and assume it is a direct relation to track performance. Cells get loaded with over 100amp during racing that significatly reduce the effeciency of high internal resistance cells. Try bench testing with a simulation of on track performance, including over 100 amp bursts. Only then will you see the true energy lose through cell resistance.

The tanic 5000mah cells are new and I have not had a chance to try them, if the claims of 30c are true then that could account for your track testing results. That cell is well beyond anything most people would have had a chance to test and compare. Infact the IR per gram would be far superior to any other cell out there.

[John Stranahan]

My NiMH were charged at 6 amps, tested on the second charge of the day where they are faster, run right off the charger where they are faster.

My LiPo was run on the first charge of the day, right off the charger. There is not much difference between this run and a second run right off the charger. There is significant voltage loss if this Scorpion pack sits charged and unused for 20 minutes or overnight. Same for an Apogee LiMn LiPO pack.

I have not tested the Orion pack as I cannot track test it in a JRXS.

I speculated in the post that was quoted and in a followup post that if I had an instrument that would test at higher amperage (higher than 35 amps) and provide a Voltage vs time Graph that I would see my track results on the graph instead of just on the track.

[Aluma]

Ummm...so like, when do these things come out for sale? Cant find them on ebay or tower.

[Rick Hohwart]

Ummm...so like, when do these things come out for sale? Cant find them on ebay or tower.

Team Orion Carbon Edition 3200 (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNMF9&P=7)


Peak Racing version (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXPJN2&P=7)

Any decent hobby shop will be able to order on for you if they do not already have them in stock.

[chilly4kc]

Hi Rick. Why does the Peak one cost more? Or is that price increase something that Tower tacked on?

[Aluma]

thank you!

[B4 Stealth]

any news on when roar will approve these? it better be for '07, if not I officially hate them :D

[Rick Hohwart]

I amnot sure why Tower prices one higher than theother. It is something we are looking into at the moment.

There is no way they will be legal for 2007. For a battery to be legal for racing in 2007, it would have had to have been submitted by September of 2006. With no LiPo rules, no batteries can be submitted.

But this rule applies to all cells. No doubt you will see "illegal" NiMH batteries allowed at club races and some competitions in 2007 As new batteries are released. FYI, both IB 4200 versions and GP 4300 are not legal for competition until 2007 but have been used for the most part of 2006 with no problems.

If you want to use your LiPo packs, you can always use the argument that illegal batteries are already being used, so LiPo should be allowed too. After all, batteries are legal, or they are not. If you are going to allow illegal cells, allow illegal cells. Or don't allow any at all.

[chilly4kc]

I amnot sure why Tower prices one higher than theother. It is something we are looking into at the moment.

Thanks for looking into that. I'm curious to see why that is.

The local tracks I deal with, they don't mind you running LiPos in Mod truck and buggy, just not stock. It seems to be more fair that way.

[rcrcman]

Rick, I have one of the 3200's and after a 5min mod buggy run, I plug it in to charger it is at a relatively low voltage and doesnt gain up to 8.3-8.4 untill the last few minutes of charging. I am using an astroflight 109 charger and charging at 1c like it says. It usually takes between 35-45 minutes to get it charged. Is this normal?

[Rick Hohwart]

At about 80% charged, the battery should reach 8.4 V. It will maintain this voltage as the current begins to drop from 3.2A (1C) to 0. This is when the charge is complete.

35 - 45 minutes is not very long if the voltage is low after your run. From "dead", the battery should take a little over an hour to charge at 1C.

Your battery may not be as low as you think after your run, or it may not be charging completely. The fact your battery is raching 8.3-8.4 at the end of the charge is odd, it should be at that voltage for the entire last portion of the CV (constant voltage) portion of the charge.

[rcrcman]

I'll watch it closely tomorrow night and see exactly when it hits 8.4v

[kojak61]

Has anyone tried to put in a Xray T2? Do you still need to mod it?

[rcrcman]

Everything's cool with the battery....I was alittle concerned with the charge time but its on par with the guys running stock, they have to charge for about 25 mins and I charge for about 40 mins running mod. I have run it down to about 7.0v practicing.....whats a too-low voltage?

[Rick Hohwart]

Too low is under 6 volts.

[badboy2]

do u get lipo just for run time or it also adds torque on the motors u r running?

[chilly4kc]

I think both. The Lipo gives you more punch (7.4 volts vs 7.2) and that power last for longer at a consistent rate. Plus, you get more take off and top end.

For a test, through a LiPo in a brushed stock motor, and you'll see more speed, torque, and insane run time than a NiMH pack.

[montrealer]

Has anyone tried to put in a Xray T2? Do you still need to mod it?

Yeah,

You need to shave about 2mm off the corner opposite to the female bullet connections in order to fit the pack under the rear "passenger side" bulkhead. I also found you need to install the battery with the connectors facing the front of the car otherwise you will need to shave the corner where the connectors are located and that's not a good idea.

By the way, it's strange to say that about a battery pack but the finition is absolutely stunning and looks real good on a full carbon chassis.

Hope this helps.

[McLin]

Rick, being mainly concerned with oval racing, has there been any construction of packs that will fall in line with our 4 cell racing?

[ElectricThunder]

do u get lipo just for run time or it also adds torque on the motors u r running?
Lipos maintain voltage under load much better than a comparable pack of NiMH cells. Higher voltage means more power, so the motor will essentially be running at a higher voltage than its NiMH powered counterpart. They also have much lower internal resistance than NiMH cells, which is another factor to consider.

[Rick Hohwart]

Rick, being mainly concerned with oval racing, has there been any construction of packs that will fall in line with our 4 cell racing?

We are working on it. Especially since TC racing is going 4-cell. If you are already using receiver packs, you could try a 3.7v lipo battery. You will be slower than a 4-cell pack, but you will enjoy all the benefits of LiPo longevity and ease of use.

[Aluma]

why in the world would TC be going 4 cell? Too fast with 6? I mean, I know why ROAR outlawed lipos yesterday(business) and all, but now to make cars slower?

[McLin]

Thanks Rick, I do hope that there will be development in this area since that is the way a lot of racing is headed these days.

[chilly4kc]

Maybe with 4 Lipo cells you get the same punch as a 6 cell NiMH pack but less weight?

[Rick Hohwart]

There are many LiPo enthusiasts that claim the reason ROAR is gong to 4-cell in many classes is to prevent LiPo from becoming a viable alternative to NiMH. Development is tough due to the nature of LiPo. We have 3.7, 7.4, and 11.1 volt options now, with current technology, 4.8 or 6.0 is not possible.

Going to 4-cells is designed to make the cars slower and improve the longevity of equipment. 4-cell will be slower nomatter what. That is not to say a driver will not produce faster lap times with fewer cells as most drivers over-power their cars anyway.

[nicholcgn]

Ok 4 cell is slower. But will you not see more heat from people stressing the 4cell to the limits? Wouldn't it be better to go more voltage and build a motor that is slower? Higher voltage and less heat means less stress on my batteries. I also get the slower car for equipment wear. I think the way to limit the speed is via the motor and not the cell. Am I way off base here?

[Nomadio_Sales]

Rick what are your thoughts on ROAR banning lipoly for 2007?

[chilly4kc]

This is ROAR's (http://www.roarracing.com) annoucement on their LiPo ruling:

"11/12/06 LiPo battery decision clarified.

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further."

Next they will say that BL motors can't can't compete either. I think either the "traditional" companies that sell NiMH and brushed motors have too much influence, or ROAR fails to see the future or eletric racing. :(

[Mr. Schumacher]

6 cells to 4 cells = V10 engines to V8 engines in F1. :roll2:
Lower the cost with same excitement. Why not? :wave:
LiPo or not? I don't know but I feel more safe with NiMH. :cool:
Brushless systems should be allowed. Banned? SAD. :(

[Nomadio_Sales]

The way it reads from the ROAR minutes is IN all r/c vehicles.

"A proposal to outlaw Lithium Polymer batteries in all r/c vehicles was
discussed. This item was adopted."

Who ever in ROAR took the minutes does not know how to properly take minutes of meetings.

Now where in that statement does it say receiver packs are ok?

[sim600]

Hahahahahahaha! ROFL! This is better than reading Dilbert.

"ROAR will investigate further."

We're "concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials" but please go ahead and use your LiPo RX packs in nitro vehicles while we investigate. Just don't use them in electric, okay?

This is ROAR's (http://www.roarracing.com) annoucement on their LiPo ruling:

"11/12/06 LiPo battery decision clarified.

For 2007 Lithium Polymer batteries are not permitted to compete with NiCad or NiMh batteries in electric class racing because the voltages are not equivalent nor do the pack dimensions match those currently observed by ROAR and IFMAR. This rule does not currently affect receiver packs at this time, however ROAR is concerned with the overall safety of these cells when located near or around flammable/combustible materials. ROAR will investigate this further."

Next they will say that BL motors can't can't compete either. I think either the "traditional" companies that sell NiMH and brushed motors have too much influence, or ROAR fails to see the future or eletric racing. :(

[Nomadio_Sales]

From another forum Mike Queller said they are going to "FIX the MINUTES" ROFLOL!

"ammdrew



Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 289
Location: minnesota

PostPosted: 15 Nov 2006 09:43 Post subject: Reply with quoteBack to top
Mr q said it was exclusive and they would fix the minutes."


ROFLOL fix the minutes that has to be the funniest thing I have ever read from a racing org.

Wonder if my Doctor can do that? Hey Doc about your findings well I don't like them can you fix them please. hehehehehehe

Our Cub Scouts take better meeting notes.

I HOPE they allow LOPO receiver packs

You can tell I am getting cranky"

[scoob]

Deleted

[Aluma]

I think that the lipos arent allowed, not cuz of dimensions (the orion ones are the same size), but because there's only one manufacturer that sells them. Orion/peak. THink of ALL the matcher businesses out there..they'd all lose LOTS of money. when everyone has a LIpo pack out...then they'll be run.

[JakeE]

I think that the lipos arent allowed, not cuz of dimensions (the orion ones are the same size), but because there's only one manufacturer that sells them. Orion/peak. THink of ALL the matcher businesses out there..they'd all lose LOTS of money. when everyone has a LIpo pack out...then they'll be run.

I don't buy this argument, Orion/Peak certainly aren't the only game in town. There are several vendors of Lipo batteries for use in RC vehicles: Maxamps, Apogee, Thunder Power, Kokam (OEM for Orion/Peak packs) etc.

[Aluma]

I know that, but the MAIN players in R/C is what I'm talking about.

[WJ Birmingham]

I know that, but the MAIN players in R/C is what I'm talking about.

IE: Someone on the board at ROAR. LMAO

[papazilla]

Main players in RC? That is an awful narrow view of the hobby. The above mentioned LiPo manufactures are huge players in the RC plane world. I have 5 Thunder Power packs in various aircraft right now....not one Orion/Peak pack.

[Z-Rider]

Does anyone know if the 3200 will fit the XRAY T1 FK05 chassis. Has it been done and if so what "mods" needed to be done and to which components? Bulkheads or battery case. Any help would be great,
Z-Rider

[sim600]

Hi guys,

I just got my Carbon 3200 pack a few days back. Haven't had time to run it but did some test fitting and took some photos of it. It'll fit in most cars.

http://www.bigbigplanet.com/rccars/3200/3200_02.jpg

http://www.bigbigplanet.com/rccars/3200/3200_03.jpg

More pics on my site:
http://www.bigbigplanet.com/rccars/3200

Thanks.

[jocktheglide165]

sim600
thanks for that info man....awesome knowing it fits in most cars. Does the 3200mah have more run time than say a GP4300?

[NiMo]

Thanks for the comparison pictures
I was debating whether to rebuild my M03 Mini, and not having cells and just a 4800 LiPo I had nowt to run it with, but it looks like the 3200 LiPo will fit in the M03 chassis.

[sim600]

Haven't actually tried running them so not sure about runtime yet