Li-Po vs Li-On vs Li-Mn

[bxpitbull]

Li-Po vs Li-Ion vs Li-Mn--->this is the new war. Forget whats going on in the rest of the world, this is the war we will be concentrating on ladies and germs. And with A123 having an inter-cell rift with Li-On, that opens the battle up on another front. So RC'ers, where do we go from here? And for smaller "cell-nations" where will Ni-Mh fight? Man oh man, nitro is like a third world nation and no one is paying them any attention boo hoo :( . Where do you folks stand?????

[ElectricThunder]

I personally am leaning towards the M1 cells from A123. No LVC, 30C discharge rate cont., 60C surge, and are capable of 100C bursts (read the spec sheets... :eek: ). On top of that, 15 minute charge time for a 2s1p, or 30 minutes for a 2s2p; both to a full charge. And.....the magic box! Selectable voltage from one battery. What's not to like?

A123 all the way for me when I have the funds (and can convince the parents).

[___rollin___]

I'd have to say for sheer affordability, the M1's are the way to go. Although they do pack quite a punch in a small package. Plus, they are relatively simple, I.E. what ET said. No LVC, ect.

For sheer performance, li-po's have the highest power/density ratio. But they are pretty expensive (especially for the high-end cells).

Li-Mh, I have no idea. They seem safe. But there isn't much in the way of these cells yet. So I dunno...

[ElectricThunder]

I'd have to say for sheer affordability, the M1's are the way to go. Although they do pack quite a punch in a small package. Plus, they are relatively simple, I.E. what ET said. No LVC, ect.

For sheer performance, li-po's have the highest power/density ratio. But they are pretty expensive (especially for the high-end cells).

Li-Mh, I have no idea. They seem safe. But there isn't much in the way of these cells yet. So I dunno...
Basically, he's for M1s as well. He agrees with me, and shares my opinions on this current technology. Therefore, he is like my mini-me....:D

[bxpitbull]

Basically, he's for M1s as well. He agrees with me, and shares my opinions on this current technology. Therefore, he is like my mini-me....:D

Ooohh, talk about...STAB! :eek: ;) . The Li-Mn have been posting test all around the place; they are by APOGEE. Supposed to be more stable and just as powerful/ Any word when the A123 Li-On supposed to be available for purchase? I know they are doing big things for DeWalt.

[ElectricThunder]

Ooohh, talk about...STAB! :eek: ;) . The Li-Mn have been posting test all around the place; they are by APOGEE. Supposed to be more stable and just as powerful/ Any word when the A123 Li-On supposed to be available for purchase? I know they are doing big things for DeWalt.
Read (http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/showthread.php?t=222362)

(Yes, they're available for purchase btw: a123racing.com)

[bxpitbull]

Read (http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/showthread.php?t=222362)

(Yes, they're available for purchase btw: a123racing.com)

Thats the post I have been looking for. Anytime I have tried to view it, all of the images came across as "boxes with x's" in them..couldnt view.

[cart213]

My vote goes to Li-ion. I really like my Emoli cells, and the A123 cells should be even better.

[bxpitbull]

But, there are no prices attached yet

[ElectricThunder]

But, there are no prices attached yet
To the A123 Li-ions?

Check www.a123racing.com for prices.

In case you can't get to the site for some reason:

2s1p= 50 bucks (90 w/ turbo box thingy)
3s1p= 75 bucks (115 w/ turbo box thingy)
2s2p= 100 bucks (140 w/ turbo box thingy)
charger= 80 bucks

2s1p Bundle Kit (2s1p X2 batteries + charger)= 190 bucks
2s1p Bundle Kit w/ turbo box (2s1p X2 batteries + charger + turbo box X2)= 220 bucks

[bxpitbull]

To the A123 Li-ions?

Check www.a123racing.com for prices.

In case you can't get to the site for some reason:

2s1p= 50 bucks (90 w/ turbo box thingy)
3s1p= 75 bucks (115 w/ turbo box thingy)
2s2p= 100 bucks (140 w/ turbo box thingy)
charger= 80 bucks

2s1p Bundle Kit (2s1p X2 batteries + charger)= 190 bucks
2s1p Bundle Kit w/ turbo box (2s1p X2 batteries + charger + 1 turbo box)= 220 bucks

I have gone to the site and paroused through; didnt see anything pertaining to R/C as detailed as you as you mentioned. I take it you are running one of these systems...considering you are plugging it oh so steadfastly.

[bxpitbull]

So, for high amp draw applications, which is the best to go with?? I am running a Hara Pro 4 with a GTB/4.5 combo on IB 3800 cells. I get exactly 10 minutes run time when I am not snappinig dogbones. Heat is minimal, with the motor running at around 145 degrees max. Batteries are warm to the touch and I look to expound upon this run time and performance. I know what Li-Po brings to the table, so how will this relate with these cells from A123?

[___rollin___]

I have gone to the site and paroused through; didnt see anything pertaining to R/C as detailed as you as you mentioned. I take it you are running one of these systems...considering you are plugging it oh so steadfastly.

Are you looking at a123racing.com? I think you might be looking at a123systems.com. ET isn't running the cells anyways..

[ElectricThunder]

I'm not running them unfortunately (yet!), nor do I work for A123 (for one thing, I live in Florida and am not out of high school yet). I just like the specs of the cells, and for what they are, they're not too expensive. They seem to be some good stuff (I've read up on them quite a bit).

I'd say 2s2p for the 4.5 btw. The batts are a tad wider than a standard stick pack also (53mm), and 28mm tall if that helps you at all. They're heavier than most lipos (but lighter [2s2p] by about 3 oz. than a 6 cell stick pack), but can discharge 30C cont. and 60C surge, which ain't too shabby at all. No LVC is required for these packs either. They can charge fully to 30 minutes for a 2s2p pack, or 15 minutes to full charge for a 2s1p pack.

Just read the thread on the m1 cells; all the info is in there, and there's an A123 racing rep in there to answer questions that are beyond my knowledge (like I said...definitely don't work for them..:D).

[JCSS]

The li-ion 123 cells are C size, not sub-C size, they simply will not fit in most battery trays. Also, they are very low voltage cells, try running your normal ni-mh's down to 6.6 volts and driving. That is just crazy SLOW. That's what you are getting. Additionally, they are much heavier than normal li-po's. Less voltage, more weight, and don't fit without hacking your chassis to pieces.

[ElectricThunder]

The li-ion 123 cells are C size, not sub-C size, they simply will not fit in most battery trays. Also, they are very low voltage cells, try running your normal ni-mh's down to 6.6 volts and driving. That is just crazy SLOW. That's what you are getting. Additionally, they are much heavier than normal li-po's. Less voltage, more weight, and don't fit without hacking your chassis to pieces.
True...but when you run a NiMH pack at 6.6 volts, there's voltage drop even further because of amp draw (and the capacity of the battery is already pretty low at 6.6 volts, so it just can't discharge too many amps because it's got very little capacity left at such a voltage, so voltage will take a further dive). I think these cells are supposed to hold their voltage (like lipo) much better than a NiMH. I think one of the a123 racing reps was even running a pro4 with a neo 3 star setup on just a 2s1p pack @6.6 volts, and I doubt that was slow.

Also....A123 racing has a little transformer that kicks voltage up to 7.2, 8.4, 9.6, or 10.8 volts (it's a magic box, with a pushbutton, so you can select any of the 4 voltages with one pack, and only get a 5-10% loss in capacity for any setting to get that voltage).

Like I said, don't rely on me for specs and stuff, go read the thread; there's tons of info in that thread about M1s (not to mention a representative of the company to answer your questions, like some other companies have done on here).:)

[bxpitbull]

The li-ion 123 cells are C size, not sub-C size, they simply will not fit in most battery trays. Also, they are very low voltage cells, try running your normal ni-mh's down to 6.6 volts and driving. That is just crazy SLOW. That's what you are getting. Additionally, they are much heavier than normal li-po's. Less voltage, more weight, and don't fit without hacking your chassis to pieces.

JCSS, damn good point! Seems like A123 has suffered a serious battlefield casualty, someone call a medic or a corpsman. Now back to Li-Mn and Li-Po......That fight continues.......

[ElectricThunder]

JCSS, damn good point! Seems like A123 has suffered a serious battlefield casualty, someone call a medic or a corpsman. Now back to Li-Mn and Li-Po......That fight continues.......
:rolleyes:

[___rollin___]

JCSS, damn good point! Seems like A123 has suffered a serious battlefield casualty, someone call a medic or a corpsman. Now back to Li-Mn and Li-Po......That fight continues.......

Well, it is a good point. BUT they are similiar lengths, and somewhat similiar diameters.

With the magic box, it provides a constant amount of voltage. So less than half the wieght of Ni-Mh, you can make up for a mere voltage decrease. But the magic box only runs 7.2 volts minimum, so it's the same I guess. Still with half the weight.

Who says you can't bust out the dremel for the tray either?

[JCSS]

I'm not sure where the advantage of the Li-ion's light weight comes in when they weigh more than li-po or li-mn. They (the li-ion 4600 mah) weigh 13 grams more than the maxamps 6000 mah pack. The max amps costs 79 bucks and puts out 7.4 volts. The li-ion costs 100 if you want only 6.6 volts, and 140 if you want 7.2 volts.

And i've broken enough chassis's racing offroad, there is no way i'm going to weaken any of my chassis's with dremel work.

[___rollin___]

I'm not sure where the advantage of the Li-ion's light weight comes in when they weigh more than li-po or li-mn. They (the li-ion 4600 mah) weigh 13 grams more than the maxamps 6000 mah pack. The max amps costs 79 bucks and puts out 7.4 volts. The li-ion costs 100 if you want only 6.6 volts, and 140 if you want 7.2 volts.

And i've broken enough chassis's racing offroad, there is no way i'm going to weaken any of my chassis's with dremel work.

The 6000mah pack doesn't really cost $79, what about a LVC, and taps?

The weight, the 2s1p (the 2300 mah one) weighs HALF as much as the 2s2p (the 4600 mah one). I don't know if this makes any difference at all, but the LVC/Taps weigh something, right?

The Saga Continues....

[ElectricThunder]

I'm not sure where the advantage of the Li-ion's light weight comes in when they weigh more than li-po or li-mn. They (the li-ion 4600 mah) weigh 13 grams more than the maxamps 6000 mah pack. The max amps costs 79 bucks and puts out 7.4 volts. The li-ion costs 100 if you want only 6.6 volts, and 140 if you want 7.2 volts.

And i've broken enough chassis's racing offroad, there is no way i'm going to weaken any of my chassis's with dremel work.
The maxamps may cost about 80 bucks, but can it discharge at 138 amps continuous, and double that max (unfortunately...it's limited to 60+ amps cont. by the connectors, and 130+ amps surge by the connectors; but just talking the cells here)? The li-ions may come out heavier comapred to some lipos, but the voltage transformer thingy is worth it IMO, as is the 30/60 C discharge rates, and the VERY short charge times to a FULL charge.

As for the 13 grams...I'm sure the LVC would be at least 4 grams, so now it's only a 9 gram weight difference. 9 grams is nothing to argue about in terms of weight savings in my personal opinion.:)

I think it'll come down to preference for this stuff in the end though; at least until one of these technologies becomes mainstream stuff anyways.

[nicholcgn]

You do not have to have a LVC with all ESC's The new reedy has a setting for Lipo. Some of the other ESC have LVC. Plus if you run the transformer you loose 5 to 10 %? That is a hit on capacity. It is a great tech but I would also question how well the "transformer Thingy" performs. Are there heat issues with it? I hope someone will give us a real world report. Lets be realistic people selling make claims that tend to be towards the best of a product.

Most of the weight difference could be equaled out if you put a hard case around the batteries. So weight is about equal.

Personally I use the KISS rule. Keep it simple stupid. The transformer is another piece. Breaks a rule at this point. Has to make up a lot of ground because of that.


Jury is out on the new batteries.

I have some Max Amps. Love them. Want to try li-mn. I just need capacity. I am not in the market for less that an 8000 pack. When they get there I will try a set.

[___rollin___]

On the 4600 mah pack that's only 4100 mah's, and that's 10% on ANY setting.

The average Joe around here probably doesn't have a esc with a LVC built in.

So it's a toss up I guess, I'm done arguing for the night....

[jocktheglide165]

in the end you guys are insane.......maybe thats why nitro is more popular cause in reality its a lot easier than electric....you guys act like we need Ph.D.s in math to run an electric im joe blow here I just want it to run....

[___rollin___]

in the end you guys are insane.......maybe thats why nitro is more popular cause in reality its a lot easier than electric....you guys act like we need Ph.D.s in math to run an electric im joe blow here I just want it to run....

I wouldn't say so... We are just trying to see what the best cells are. Seems it is ET and I vs. the world. Plus that's that is what these forums are for jocktheglide, to help people.

About nitro, it's all opinion, and we are trying to prove FACTS (for the most part, but it all comes down to preference and your wallet)!

[nicholcgn]

So Nitro never has any discussions about engines or fuels? Sure they do. Its all in fun and picking up knowledge. To pick up valuble knowledge you need to understand the paramaters of what you are talking about. Truthfully you can run an electric with pretty much plug and play. No rocket science to a Novak or lrp combo and a pack of Nimh.

To me most of this conversation is helping us learn about what points need to be considered when choosing batteries. Same usualy happens on cars\servos\radios. Generally Voltage and IR are important. But now with Lithium and new tech we are back to safety issues and the cost, money and weight of these.

[JCSS]

I run decent BL speedo's. The LVC is already built in. No extra weight at all to me. But, if I had to run a LVC, all the ones i've seen look much lighter than the "magic box".

What about the extra weight of the "magic box"???? I guess you wouldn't have to run it either. But then you are only getting 6.6 volts.

On price, you can join the max amps club and get an additional 5% off your first order, so the pack would actually be around 75 before shipping, with 1400 more mah than the 123's, and weighs less. I got a pack from max amps a couple weeks ago and cost me 83 bucks shipped.

How about some numbers?? :) A little food for thought.

Let's say you take your 2s2p 4600 mah li-ion pack. Let's say you step the voltage up to 10.8v via the "magic box". Let's say you are using a motor that uses only 30 amp continuous. Do you realize that it will take an additional 68 amp draw to the "magic box" to maintain a 10.8v output? That's 98 amps continuous draw from the batteries to maintain a 10.8v output under a 30 amp load from the motor. That will result in over a 65% loss in run time.

Let's now say that you only bump your voltage up to 7.2 volts. Let's say you are still using the motor that pulls 30 amps continuous. To maintain 7.2 volts, the "voodoo box" will have to pull an additional 10 amps to keep this voltage under a 30 amp load. This results in over a 40 amp total load on the batteries, and results in over a 25 loss in run time because of the energy wasted to keep the voltage up in the "magic box".

All these numbers are before the "5-10% losses" that 123 claims the "magic box" uses.

[bxpitbull]

Jockitch, you must be out of your mind. I too run nitro and the headaches are the same, " Whose nitro has the most oil content? Should I run trinity 30 or O'Donnell 30? I broke my engine in on 30, can I go down to twenty? I notice that when I run Byron 30, my engine is a bit more gurgly than when run trinity platinum or O'Donnel 30, could it be because of their 16% synthetic oil content? I notice when I use OS R5 plugs, it takes my engine more time to get a more accurate tune than if I use OS 8"!!BLAH BLAH BLAH! It's the same arguements, just different types of power sources. So, if you have nothing constructive to offer or any insight to the battery convo, BREAKOUT!!!! LEAVE!!!!

[bxpitbull]

True...but when you run a NiMH pack at 6.6 volts, there's voltage drop even further because of amp draw (and the capacity of the battery is already pretty low at 6.6 volts, so it just can't discharge too many amps because it's got very little capacity left at such a voltage, so voltage will take a further dive). I think these cells are supposed to hold their voltage (like lipo) much better than a NiMH. I think one of the a123 racing reps was even running a pro4 with a neo 3 star setup on just a 2s1p pack @6.6 volts, and I doubt that was slow.

Also....A123 racing has a little transformer that kicks voltage up to 7.2, 8.4, 9.6, or 10.8 volts (it's a magic box, with a pushbutton, so you can select any of the 4 voltages with one pack, and only get a 5-10% loss in capacity for any setting to get that voltage).

Like I said, don't rely on me for specs and stuff, go read the thread; there's tons of info in that thread about M1s (not to mention a representative of the company to answer your questions, like some other companies have done on here).:)

For guys like myself running the GTB, this spec is useless. I cant pump anything more than 7.4 volts through it and to be honest, the GTB with the 4.5 is a rocket at 7.2! So for those of us running ESC's with 6 cell limits, this feature is useless. I guess for those running off-road electric MT, the fact you can bump up to a drastic amount of juice, this is a plus for you.

As for the LVC and deans from max-amps, so what? You have gone from a 74.99 pack to adding about $35 dollars more. Big deal? 6000 mah is way more run time and consistant volts running $110 is a better deal AND proven results! The battle leaning for Li-po intensifies!

Anyone for Li-manganese? I have been seeing the tests posted by Apogee, but how will they match up next to Li-Po? And, as far as Li-On, aside of A123, what about the other Li-On cells out there? keep it going people, this can be a drawn out brawl. And nitro cats with no positive insight or relevant info, BE OUT!!!!!!!

[bxpitbull]

Just thought about something....if someone bumps up there voltage, do they realize they have to adjust their GEAR RATIO..? When you go up in voltage, you increase rpm. This means you will gain heat if you dont adjust your gear ratio to accomodate the newly found rpm's Thats electric 101. In any event, I hope people realize that. There seems to be this unspoken thought that if you increase voltage, you gain run time. Negative. The only thing you gain is a few more rpm's and even if the run times are stretched a bit with Li-On, if you dont do your math, you will burn something up, either on your ESC or the motor. The motors werent meant to take that much more current and run for crazy long times without pauses in between. Li-On needs a shot of adrenaline right about now....

[ElectricThunder]

For guys like myself running the GTB, this spec is useless. I cant pump anything more than 7.4 volts through it and to be honest, the GTB with the 4.5 is a rocket at 7.2! So for those of us running ESC's with 6 cell limits, this feature is useless. I guess for those running off-road electric MT, the fact you can bump up to a drastic amount of juice, this is a plus for you.
I wouldn't say it's useless. Just use the 7.2 volt setting and don't touch it...:D (although you COULD run 8.4 volts on a GTB probably, you'd just void your warranty and things would get toastier :eek: ).

Gearing down with higher voltage is a must, you're right; and if you don't know that you need to gear down on higher voltages, then you shouldn't be running those higher voltages. I never mentioned running higher voltage and lower gearing for more run time, so that was kinda irrelevant I guess.

Li-ion vs. Lipo vs. LiMn; they all have their pros, and they all have their cons. Personal preference is what it comes down to IMO. Time will tell which truly is the "better" technology though I suppose.

(Also, why must you make personal attacks on people, like calling jocktheglide "jockitch"? At least keep it civil like the other posters in this thread. :))

[WJ Birmingham]

BXPB;

Lithium Polymer is made from the base metal of Cobalt

The Apogee Magnum is made from Lithium Manganese

The A123 is of unknown origin.

You will see, in time, the other Li-Po manufactures switching over, as Manganese is a better base material to start with for heat and flammability in Lithium packs.

ElectricThunder, I'm curious. Do you have all of the technologies in hand to compare?

-WJ

[ElectricThunder]

ElectricThunder, I'm curious. Do you have all of the technologies in hand to compare?

-WJ
No (Even if I ordered the A123 batteries when they first came out, I'd probably not have them in my hands yet anyways; 7-10 business days for an order to ship).:( I wish I did though. I'm just merely stating my preference/opinion on which technology I like/suits me at the moment (and merely re-stating what specs I've read).:)

Out of curiosity, has Apogee gotten their hands on any M1s to compare their lipo and limn stuff to? That'd be cool if you guys could do that.

Edit: Why do lipos use a base metal of cobalt? I think it has magnetic properties, but why would it be used in lipos (because of that magnetic property perhaps?)?

[bxpitbull]

I wouldn't say it's useless. Just use the 7.2 volt setting and don't touch it...:D (although you COULD run 8.4 volts on a GTB probably, you'd just void your warranty and things would get toastier :eek: ).

Gearing down with higher voltage is a must, you're right; and if you don't know that you need to gear down on higher voltages, then you shouldn't be running those higher voltages. I never mentioned running higher voltage and lower gearing for more run time, so that was kinda irrelevant I guess.

Li-ion vs. Lipo vs. LiMn; they all have their pros, and they all have their cons. Personal preference is what it comes down to IMO. Time will tell which truly is the "better" technology though I suppose.

(Also, why must you make personal attacks on people, like calling jocktheglide "jockitch"? At least keep it civil like the other posters in this thread. :))

You are right, all have their pro's and cons. I presented the batteries to illicit opinions and find out what people are thinking. Furthermore, I didnt insult or become somewhat "un-civil" until jock came out the side of his neck. While he did it indirectly, he was coming off rather snidely, I picked up on it and shot back at him. I live for the battle and if people are going to be sensitive, they ought to refrain from commenting. This was about which cells will be better for those of us looking for the optimal cell upgrade, not some pinhead who comes off with a holier than thou attitude about nitro. If we wanted to go there, it wouldnt have been labelled "Li-Po vs Li-On vs Li-Mn",instead it would have been named "Li vs Nitro".

[jocktheglide165]

Jockitch, you must be out of your mind. I too run nitro and the headaches are the same, " Whose nitro has the most oil content? Should I run trinity 30 or O'Donnell 30? I broke my engine in on 30, can I go down to twenty? I notice that when I run Byron 30, my engine is a bit more gurgly than when run trinity platinum or O'Donnel 30, could it be because of their 16% synthetic oil content? I notice when I use OS R5 plugs, it takes my engine more time to get a more accurate tune than if I use OS 8"!!BLAH BLAH BLAH! It's the same arguements, just different types of power sources. So, if you have nothing constructive to offer or any insight to the battery convo, BREAKOUT!!!! LEAVE!!!!
whoa dude...take it easy there....you are going a little crazy....its all in good humor and fun I was actually complimenting you guys with your math and what not...again im joe blow I buy into the new technology if its good and makes my electric monster truck run better then fine im happy im probably the first to even buy the new a123racing batterie cells. HOW ABOUT YOU YOU TALK ALOT OF ELECTRIC WHAT YOU GOT NICAD STILL? :p :p :p

[___rollin___]

Does this kind of thing happen every time there is a new technology out, lol :D

[bxpitbull]

whoa dude...take it easy there....you are going a little crazy....its all in good humor and fun I was actually complimenting you guys with your math and what not...again im joe blow I buy into the new technology if its good and makes my electric monster truck run better then fine im happy im probably the first to even buy the new a123racing batterie cells. HOW ABOUT YOU YOU TALK ALOT OF ELECTRIC WHAT YOU GOT NICAD STILL? :p :p :p

Nicad? you're reaching! Currently I am running IB3800's in my Hara Pro 4 with a GTB/4.5 installed. I am picking up some some 4300's on Friday, and depending on whether more manufacturers start making hop-ups for the Pro 4, I am inquiring about stronger cells. The 4.5 is snapping MIP CVD's like it's no ones business. I have demoted my dog bones and use the stock graphite dog bones that come with the tc3 with the Pro 4 axles. They actually have taken more abuse. I am looking to have some universals fabricated and before I took the plunge, was doing a lil research on which cells would give me the most bang for my buck.

My other electrics include my Losi XXX-S. That is my day to day fun car with a Novak Dually and 10x1 D5 can with Cobalt endbell. This is on 3300's hundreds. Good speed and run time.

My TC3 roller, waiting for the Losi to be upgraded to become the day to day car.

My mini LST with the mamba 8000kv installed. Waiting for some genious to start making metal pinions for the diffs. The mamba shreds the pinion in the diffs every 4th or 5th run. Have to run it on the second (medium) setting with reverse to keep from shredding stuff. When the metal pinions in the diffs are made, then Li-po it goes.

And that is just my ELECTRIC stuff. I rate the right to talk trash because I have a A TON of stuff.

So, jock, please tread lightly when you are in the yard of the pit!

[jocktheglide165]

Nicad? you're reaching! Currently I am running IB3800's in my Hara Pro 4 with a GTB/4.5 installed. I am picking up some some 4300's on Friday, and depending on whether more manufacturers start making hop-ups for the Pro 4, I am inquiring about stronger cells. The 4.5 is snapping MIP CVD's like it's no ones business. I have demoted my dog bones and use the stock graphite dog bones that come with the tc3 with the Pro 4 axles. They actually have taken more abuse. I am looking to have some universals fabricated and before I took the plunge, was doing a lil research on which cells would give me the most bang for my buck.

My other electrics include my Losi XXX-S. That is my day to day fun car with a Novak Dually and 10x1 D5 can with Cobalt endbell. This is on 3300's hundreds. Good speed and run time.

My TC3 roller, waiting for the Losi to be upgraded to become the day to day car.

My mini LST with the mamba 8000kv installed. Waiting for some genious to start making metal pinions for the diffs. The mamba shreds the pinion in the diffs every 4th or 5th run. Have to run it on the second (medium) setting with reverse to keep from shredding stuff. When the metal pinions in the diffs are made, then Li-po it goes.

And that is just my ELECTRIC stuff. I rate the right to talk trash because I have a A TON of stuff.

So, jock, please tread lightly when you are in the yard of the pit!

again dude chill man....there was no personal attack from me it was actually from you.... :confused: you need to chill man.....you can super lipo suctions apogee 40 million mah, but chill man....

[ElectricThunder]

I don't understand how a 4.5 is snapping MIP CVDs. If it's that little PITA pin that's held in by the grub screw on the ball part of the "ball and socket" joint, then maybe you're getting binding, and it's ripping that little pin apart. If you're snapping axles....I need to know your secret to get that much powahh out of my setups... :eek:

And let's all play nice. It makes this play a little more enjoyable (and won't scare away as many newbs).

[bxpitbull]

I don't understand how a 4.5 is snapping MIP CVDs. If it's that little PITA pin that's held in by the grub screw on the ball part of the "ball and socket" joint, then maybe you're getting binding, and it's ripping that little pin apart. If you're snapping axles....I need to know your secret to get that much powahh out of my setups... :eek:

And let's all play nice. It makes this play a little more enjoyable (and won't scare away as many newbs).

Your right thunder...I will cool it.

The 4.5 is snapping the cvd where it meets the spool and the PITA pin. I am chalking it up to lack of traction and serious over-torqueing but nonetheless, eating away at CVD's/dogbones.

On IB3800's, my Pro 4 is an absolute rocket. I too, thought it was due to binding that I am snapping things in the rear of the vehicle BUT considering that I am not running a diff, all of that extra wheel spin is putting undue stress on components and when they are meeting resistance (load when traction is attained), the inevitable occurs. Yes, the 4.5 is wrecking ish! Jock, the dog is in the cage.

[jocktheglide165]

Your right thunder...I will cool it.

The 4.5 is snapping the cvd where it meets the spool and the PITA pin. I am chalking it up to lack of traction and serious over-torqueing but nonetheless, eating away at CVD's/dogbones.

On IB3800's, my Pro 4 is an absolute rocket. I too, thought it was due to binding that I am snapping things in the rear of the vehicle BUT considering that I am not running a diff, all of that extra wheel spin is putting undue stress on components and when they are meeting resistance (load when traction is attained), the inevitable occurs. Yes, the 4.5 is wrecking ish! Jock, the dog is in the cage.
like I said im not a math nut man I dont know math, but you guys talking math for electrics is beyond me :p I just read the label on the battery if it saids, "SAFE, HIGHER MAH THAN 4300" im fine im a go actually to buy it ...... :D I cant wait till my a123racing batteries come in with the turbo box :D

[ElectricThunder]

Your right thunder...I will cool it.

The 4.5 is snapping the cvd where it meets the spool and the PITA pin. I am chalking it up to lack of traction and serious over-torqueing but nonetheless, eating away at CVD's/dogbones.

On IB3800's, my Pro 4 is an absolute rocket. I too, thought it was due to binding that I am snapping things in the rear of the vehicle BUT considering that I am not running a diff, all of that extra wheel spin is putting undue stress on components and when they are meeting resistance (load when traction is attained), the inevitable occurs. Yes, the 4.5 is wrecking ish! Jock, the dog is in the cage.
So you're running a spool? Ahhh... That little pin does suck and is easy to break, so now it does make sense. I thought you were literally snapping the actual axle in half. Gotcha now.

JCSS- I see what you mean. I was under the impression that the magic box just ate 5-10% of whatever the capacity was and was done with it. Maybe Jock can post runtime info when he gets his stuff, and help clarify if your math is right or if it is, in fact, just a 5-10% loss and that's it. (although what you're saying does make sense.)

[ElectricThunder]

I cant wait till my a123racing batteries come in with the turbo box :D
Don't forget to give us a mini-review...:D Everything from runtime to performance to temperatures (if you can; you can always just say "it was hot, it was warm, it was cool, etc.).:)

(You're running both 2s2p packs in your maxx right?)

[JCSS]

The numbers i was stating are just facts. Ohm's law. You can't pull energy out of thin air. They may call it a "magic box", but trust me, there is no magic to it. For the box to put out 10.8 volts from a 6.6v pack, it takes increased current draw to do that, and that is before the 5-10% losses of the box itself. Very simple stuff.

You could use that "magic box" on any pack, not just the 123's, but you'ld never want to, you'ld just be wasting power.

[bxpitbull]

:eek: The numbers i was stating are just facts. Ohm's law. You can't pull energy out of thin air. They may call it a "magic box", but trust me, there is no magic to it. For the box to put out 10.8 volts from a 6.6v pack, it takes increased current draw to do that, and that is before the 5-10% losses of the box itself. Very simple stuff.

You could use that "magic box" on any pack, not just the 123's, but you'ld never want to, you'ld just be wasting power.

I too was wondering about the magic jump from 6.6 to 10.8. I believe it has to do with capacitors. As anyone who has dealt with electricty knows, these puppies hold a certain amount of electricity to be used when tripped. Could it be that when the "voo doo box" is programmed or set or whatever, that these capacitors that have electricity stored in them, release their voltage according to the resistors installed? All in all, seems like JCCS has pointed out a fallacy that the folks over at A123 possibly thought we would have overlooked......

[ElectricThunder]

The numbers i was stating are just facts. Ohm's law. You can't pull energy out of thin air. They may call it a "magic box", but trust me, there is no magic to it. For the box to put out 10.8 volts from a 6.6v pack, it takes increased current draw to do that, and that is before the 5-10% losses of the box itself. Very simple stuff.

You could use that "magic box" on any pack, not just the 123's, but you'ld never want to, you'ld just be wasting power.
What if the unit is efficient enough that the 5-10% capacity loss is responsible for upping the voltage to 7.2-10.8 volts? Could that at all be possible? And if, in your example, the batteries are giving up 98 amps cont. to provide that 10.8 volts, then doesn't that mean you CAN'T use this turbo box thingy (what they call it, I call it the "magic box", much catchier IMO;)) with stuff like NiMH (which I doubt will handle 98 amps cont. without getting VERY hot, and potentially damaging themselves).

Thanks for brining that stuff to my attention though. I guess when Jock gets his packs he can give us the inside scoop as to what's going on then in terms of runtime and performance and what not.

[JCSS]

I think you might be starting to catch on ET. Ni-mh's would get pretty hot on higher voltage settings under high draw motors, not so much on lower voltage settings and slower motors.

Fyi- I think the "voodoo box" would best be described by the term "step-up transformer". Pretty simple.

[___rollin___]

Even though I am with ET on this discussion (in favor of a123 cells) :D . But, will that 5-10% of capacity loss be PURE heat on the magic box?

[khyron]

in the end you guys are insane.......maybe thats why nitro is more popular cause in reality its a lot easier than electric....you guys act like we need Ph.D.s in math to run an electric im joe blow here I just want it to run....

It all depends on how you look at it. There may seem to be a lot of options on how to put an electric setup together yourself, but if you just bought a brushless RTR off the shelf and put a battery in it and you just bought a nitro RTR off the shelf and put fuel in it - which one would die faster if the owner didn't go learn a bunch more stuff and buy a bunch more parts?

It's all relative. Truth is, we electric folk are going to start buying your nitro kits soon, because modern motors are more powerful than your engines and it's about time we had some real transmissions too! I'd like to see a nitro touring car run versus a lithium-polymer powered electric one with a Novak 3.5 under the hood. If nothing else, the electric would win when the nitro ran out of fuel...

[jocktheglide165]

It all depends on how you look at it. There may seem to be a lot of options on how to put an electric setup together yourself, but if you just bought a brushless RTR off the shelf and put a battery in it and you just bought a nitro RTR off the shelf and put fuel in it - which one would die faster if the owner didn't go learn a bunch more stuff and buy a bunch more parts?

It's all relative. Truth is, we electric folk are going to start buying your nitro kits soon, because modern motors are more powerful than your engines and it's about time we had some real transmissions too! I'd like to see a nitro touring car run versus a lithium-polymer powered electric one with a Novak 3.5 under the hood. If nothing else, the electric would win when the nitro ran out of fuel...
oh yeah I agree.....I would like to see a challenge on that one..that would rock a lipo 8000mah with novak 3.5...on the track lets see who lasts longer :D thats without refueling that is.

[SS Pede]

I'm gonna line up with ET and rollin here...I think a123's batts are the most promising. It is still a personal decision...the slightly unconventional size and relatively low capacity of the a123 cells does hold me back a little. But the durability and quick charging of the packs is very impressive. The cost is also reasonable for lithium technology. For following the KISS rule, I think a123's are pretty good. Yeah, there is the extra component of the magic box. But battery care should be simple. No LVC required, not much attention needed to keep the pack in good shape. The charger balances automatically, no separate balancer required. Low risk of catastrophic failure. Quick charging. Seems very promising to me.

I would LOVE to see a pack in the 6000-8000 mAh range for some mega run times!!! Hint hint... :)

[bxpitbull]

Time to resurrect my war of cells. Li-Po seems to be edging everyone else, especially with the bling bling brick and the team orion spec 3200mah. Anyone??????

[ElectricThunder]

Go check out the a123 thread in hot news and new products. Batfish did a sort of mini review. Apparently the A123s hold their voltage quite well over an entire run, but the down side..they dump...HARD. Still more testing to be done by him I suppose. Seems like he likes them a lot though, and that they do their job quite nicely.

Lipo and LiIon still both look good IMO. I think preference is what it'll come down to now (especially if they change the form factor of these Li-Ion cells and/or increase capacity).