Price of esc's

[combones]

How can a little box cost so much stinkin' money. Is it really that technically advanced? I still own, and use in my best car, a novak 410 M5 sport esc. This esc works flawlessly, even as well as my newer novak and lrp esc's. It has no motor limit unlike "sport" models of today. I spent ~$90 on it ten years ago. You would think that the price of esc's would drop considering the huge leap in computer chip technology made over the last 3-5 years. The price of computers has been cut in half with far more horsepower for your dollar compared to what you could get just 3 years ago. Instead, esc's are going up and up and up in price. I would like to see an esc sell for about 40-50 dollars that had no motor limit, just like my old 410. I don't care if it isn't the latest and greatest, just as long as it can perform on par with my 410. There is no reason, other than avarice, for companies not to make inexpensive, quality, esc's with no motor limit. You shouldn't have to "step up" to the next esc model( for another 40 spot) in order to get an esc that will take a 12 turn instead of a 13 turn. Please feel free to throw in your 5 cents( pennies are outdated).
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/person/pimpflash.gif

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: combones ]

[B3Tyler]

10 years ago?!? I hope you remember to clean out those vacume tubes.

[Throtl Hapie]

Completey agree with you. This hobby is rediculous to the point of laughter. $150 so your car can go .1mph faster, the battery last 24 seconds longer, and the temperature of the unit can be 4 degrees cooler!? Why?! Why not!? That's the price you pay for performance. All that money and you can't even go backwards! BUT you do get super ultra mega ABS active resonance cascade regenerating polymorphic endoplasmic reticulum circuitry induced reacto BRAKING! WOW!!! I'm drowning in riches!! I can't believe I payed $150 for it, I should be paying $150000! What a super-duper bargain!

I could get a 1Ghz computer chip for 150 dollars, probably less. **** , I could buy a new RC car kit.

[Obi112]

Even more ridiculous is the price of tires!

[Throtl Hapie]

The worst culprit though would have to be bodies next to ESC's. I mean 30-40 bux for a plastic shell.

[combones]

The 410 is in my ftb3. I race someone with a xxx. He uses a cyclone. Same batteries. Same charger. Same p2k. Just about identical gearing. Run time and punch are identical. Sometimes in my favor. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/sad/bored.gif

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: combones ]

[guggi101]

I agree 110% with combones.I am 14 and just got ripped off on a used esc. So now I am looking to get a new esc and I do want one with a very low or no motor limit. Well I have 50 to spend and my chances of getting one is none. These companies don't care all they want is money. If some are willing to pay that price then the company knows others will follow eventually. I think, I know, companies can make an no motor limit esc for under 20 for them so if they charge us 50 then they still get their profit. They would also probobly sell millions too. So thats what i think

[XXXER]

You guys, I hate to remind you of this, as it kills me everytime I think of this, you wanna play, you gotta pay. Pretty simple, now, you can **** it up, and hand over the green, or you can find other ways to get by.

Maybe you can find way for your track to have a spec class, those are what a lot of tracks have been turning to. We had a "Sport Mod" class, that was running for a while(I am actually going to see if I can get that going again) where we used Chameleons, which are just outright Stupid fast for a spec mod.

If it does not work for you, MAKE it work for you, instead of complaining with a keyboard, which is not always as effective.

[grandmasterofpool]

This is my reply to a similar thread:

A lot of you don't seem to understand how a business that sells products works. The customer has a demand and the company feeds that demand with supply. It's really that simple.
Let's look at this on a larger scale. There are simple NOT that many people who are into hobby grade radio control models to justify lowering their prices.

The reason companies like Novak, Pro-line, etc... come out with new products as quickly as they can is so they can sell them and stay in business. The market for these things just isn't large enough for them to sit back and wait until your r/c wears out to come out with a new product. So what do they do? They make hopups and promote, promote, promote. What do you think pays for that precious issue of RCCA you get in the mail every month? Your subscription fees! Not bloody likely!

I agree that you can have fun with budget escs and engines, heck, I ran P4's just so I could have a Monster Pirate and a Monster Blazer, but there is a definite need for the industry to grow and grow.

Those companies are not making a killing like everyone seems to think. They have overhead costs like engineers, building leases, machinery...and on and on. Believe it or not those things aren't free.

Sometimes life just ain't fair, but hey, that's capitalism and I wouldn't have it any other way. Would you???

[HauntedMyst]

Well said pool. Take an HPI body that retails for $24 for example.

1. Some one has to get the license for the body = lawyers
2. A modeler/team has to mold the body mold
3. Graphic artitist have to design the sticker sheet
4. Someone has to handle the production of the sticker set.
5. Reproduce the mold into a production unit
6. Manufacturer the body. My understanding is that this is done by hand, not spit out of a machine. Each sheet of lexan is loaded and molded by a person.
7. Bag the body with appropriate decals, instruction sheet, wings and hardware, again, by hand.
8.Ship the bodies to the distributor
9. Develop, coordinate and pay for advertizing and internet sites to tell you all about it.

For all that, and I know I missed a lot of steps, I estimate they make about $9 to $10 a body. That's not much when you consider how many they will actually sell. And some bodies are outright dogs and sell very little.

Distributor
They have to own and operate a large warehouse.
1. Order, receive, cataloge and store the bodies, again by manual labor
2. Operate a fairly sophisticated computer inventory and ordering system.
3. Pick the bodies, box them and ship them, again, manually.

I estimate they make do all this for about $2 a body

Your LHS

1. Pay rent on a store front.
2. Pay for an inventory system of any kind
3. Order the bodies
4. Pay for shipping on the bodies
5. Unbox and display the bodies
6. Pay an employee to do all of the above AND be there to sell you the body when you buy it.
7. if their a franchise, they have to pay a royalty.

They do all this for about $10 to $12 a body. Seem like a lot? Keep in mind they probably have $5,000 to $10,000 of their money wrapped up in just car kits waiting to be sold...which take up large amounts of shelf space (every inch of a store can be broken down into it's sales value per square foot) and guess what? For that $300 kit, they make about $30 to $40 profit, thats it! Thats why the spare parts cost so much, thats where they make their income from.

Do bodies cost too much? Yes. Do bodies cost too much? Not when you see it like that.

I see room for improvement in things like tires, inserts and wheels. I like what Ofna is doing in packaging them in sets of 4 and 8. I mean, get serious, the packaging is a big part of the cost of these things and when was the last time you only bought 2 of a certain kind of tire/wheel/insert? I personally never have. I (perhaps foolishly) alway buy 4 assuming I'll want to run them as a set. Proline, HPI, Losi, and the rest could and should put the tires/wheels/inserts in bags of four and cut the cost of these consumables. Retail on a set of these TOY tires come out to about $50.00 I can go to Pep Boys and get a full set of tires (albiet only fair ones) mounted for $99!!!

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[CaseyMan]

uh i got my Novak Rooster Reversible for 60$ at a hobby shop thats still in business in Mishawaka Indiana 3 years ago.. It has a limit.. hmm let me check book (yes i keep those things) S/MM stock mild modified. I emailed then when i got it they said dont do anything lower than 12T. Thats not bad at all. I also got my Futaba Magnum Junior 2PCKA-AM Radio for only 86$ 3 years ago.. now it sells for 150$.. hmm u guys jus seem to get screwed..

oh wait u know what!

INFLATION! everything is more expensive now a days dontcha notice that? even TP :o My rooster sells for 80$ now. I mean its not the hobby its the economy :/ sorry guys

[KIWIRCGUY]

I think you all forgot the HUGE mark up the retail stores put on things... My LHS has a mark up of between 80% and 300%.

[outsider]

I have to pay $30 for a stinking body (thanks Kyosho) when similar bodies from Proline are half the price, but using the same material. RC does rap e you when it comes to this kind of stuff. With an ESC I can understand them charging $100 or so for it because of all the engineering that's involved, but eventually scale of economy should bring the prices down. Why are stock motors so cheap when Mods are expensive as H.E. double hockey sticks? $40 for a small peice of graphite? Pull-eaze.

(this censor thing is a little crazy now. I guess people on the east coast are just more colorful in their vocabulary))

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: outsider ]

[DerekB]

I got it! Everything should be free.............................................. .........

It's a HOBBY/SPORT to you and a BUSINESS to those who make the products. I'm ****** that Porsches are too expensive. :rolleyes:

[CaseyMan]

I always thought stock motors were cheap cuase they were slow :/

[outsider]

My point was it's just as expensive to make a mod as it is a stock. The prices of Mods are just inflated to give a sense of getting more. I don't have a problem with that, but some of the prices...ouch.

[HauntedMyst]

OK, that's it, I quiet. I'm quitting RC right this moment...

[outsider]

Oh, now you're talking crazy! :p
I used to be a computer junkie. Had tons of them. Sold em all but one cause the cost was getting out of hand.

[TRAXXAS]

I've had my LRP Sport for 3 years now. It hasn't screwed up ever. I bought it for around $73. But now since I bought my friends T3 now I also have a Novak Explorer II and that hasn't screwed up either and that runs for about $80.

[guggi101]

You know you guys all say it costs so much to make these things. Well who here actually thinks HPI makes their own body. If you do you are very mistaken, one company makes most if not all. Same with all other parts. Hpi and kyosho and all those companies actually make very little. They get their parts from someone else and they put their name on it. And if you think they make a r/c car body for 9-10 bucks, your wrong. I did some research, a r/c car body is made for under $1.00. You people list all these other costs but thats not that much compared to what they sell. These companies sell world wide and even the products that they don't sell many of they are selling millions and millions.These companies know we will buy their products or else they wouldn't make them. Yes their is inflation but its not that much. And its not all these companies. Go to your LHS and check out the esc's. Well my LHS's want 60.00 and 65.00 for an Traxxas XL-1. Come on tower carries it for 35. These companies make this stuff for alot less then you people think. I know i work at a similar company. So .......

[bubblejunky]

Caseyman. 150 for a magnum jr 2pcka-am? Where are you shopping? They are under $80 at places, silly. Who said anyhting about everything being free? It would be nice to get a no motor limit, quality esc for under $50. It doesn't have to have the lowest on-resistance available, nor the strongest brakes, or the fastest switching, or whatever. Save those details for the $150 model and the racers that really want them. I think we all understand supply and demand, and we realize people are in business to make money, but things could be changed to increase participation, which in turn would lower prices for all of us.
Somebody goes to a hobby shop and asks about the car kit on the wall. He is suprised to see the price of the kit. He is even more suprised when he learns that he must also buy the radio, the motor, the esc, the batteries, and the charger if he plans on driving the car. What happens? A newbie turned away in disgust. I am aware of rtr's, so shush.
About inflation. Everything does not go up in price. Let's see. VCR's that were $300 a few years ago now sell for $99. All the features are the same, maybe better. Are all things needed to make vcr's suddenly dirt cheap. Is labor dirt cheap. No. Everybody wants DVD. They can't give vcr's away it seems, but they still make them. Novak could still make a no-motor limit esc for $50, and as guggi101 said, they would probably sell millions. It just doesn't have to have the latest and greatest upgrades. Not everybody races, some people just like to bash around. They should be able to put a 9 turn in their car controlled by an inexpensive, quality esc from a reputable esc company.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: dcommerce ]

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: dcommerce ]

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: dcommerce ]

[bubblejunky]

XXXER, I don't think you really get it.

[HauntedMyst]

BTW, for those of you making noise about PC's. Go order the latest and greatest PC in there is, fastest processor and newest feature. It's not $800, it's between 2 and 3 grand. That $800 PC is last years best.

dcommerce. I think XXX gets it, I don't think you do.

[XXXER]

Haunted Myst, Thanks :)

dccommerce, I would like a better explanantion, so that i know WHY I am wrong, that would be pretty nice, considering, I know pretty much the way the hobby shops work......or do I not get that either? :rolleyes:

[outsider]

With attitudes like this, it's no wonder others view us as elitists. Most of us don't work in hobby shops and get things at cost. I think the big difference between computers and rc car manufacturers is that you can still get a good quality PC for budget minded people. If you don't have a lot of money in RC, you're stuck with junk.

[outsider]

double. sorry

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: outsider ]

[tadium54]

Alrighty, I guess I have to say something too.
This hobby is not too expensive.
Americans, try paying for R/C in canadian funds in the canadian dollar's current position. Think about it for a minute. XXXER, I aggree. Parts are where the green is at for most LHS.

This hobby is nothing compared to skateboarding.
150 bucks for DC Scoes
100 for a board
60 for the trucks
40 for the wheels
20 for the hardware

Mind you, this is all the lowest stuff to use.
No offence, I also think this hobby is overpriced in some areas, but stop crying.

[guggi101]

You guys just pointed out our reason for being right. Hunted Myst and xxxer we are all saying that we DON'T want the newest stuff. You just said yourself that last years model is the cheap one. Well guess what 5 years ago model esc is the same price.Those 1 year old computers are 50-75 percent cheaper then when they came out. Well these esc's that have been out for a few years aren't going down at all.so no you 2 don't get it

[bubblejunky]

If you read the initial post, it is stated that you cannot get a quality, no-motor limit esc for ~$50. If you want to be able to drop whatever darn motor you want in your vehicle, then you MUST spend more money on the higher end model. If 10-year-old technology could produce a "sport" esc with no motor limit, why can't today's produce a sport model at a relativley inexpensive price? Instead of using somewhat older technology from older esc's to produce sport models, companies just stop producing this style altogether. Look at batteries. 1500 mah used to be the thing to get, and you would spend ~$50 per pack. Now, since nobody wants these anymore, you can buy a very good 1500 mah pack for $10. ESC's that were once expensive would now sell for much cheaper, but companies do not make them. They come out with C2's and quantums and raise the price even more, versus lowering the price on "outdated" products.
About computers. The top of the line may very well cost $2K, but for $800 dollars, you will get a pentium 3 or 4, monitor, printer, keyboard, etc. $2K three years ago got you a heck of alot less. Companies still make low budget computers for basically next to nothing compared to prices from 3 years ago. ESC companies just quit making budget oriented esc's. The runner and explorer are great esc's for not alot of money, but as stated, we are looking for no motor limits.
If Joe Basher starts out with an explorer, then three months down the road wants to see his car do 45 mph, he will have to buy another esc or fry his.

[chizzler]

hey tadium54, just thought i'd mention skatebording pricing goes like this american....

$80-100 shoes
$60 deck w/ grip
$40 trucks
$30 wheels
$10-100(at least) bearings/hardware
$500 clothing and fashion :D :D

but not that much has changed in this industry as well like RC except for clothing, and fashion (SHOES SHOES SHOES!).

ten years ago decks costed about the same price as well as everything to go with it..

fashion is the main difference that is the money maker :)

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: chizzler ]

[XXXER]

Hmmmm, I do not think that you can really qualify a "Sport" esc with no motor limit a "Sport" ESC.

You wand an ESC, with "yesterday's" technology, get a Novak Dually. high on-resistance, and no motor limit. Still cost 90 bucks.

I thought we were talking "High End" stuff, but then you go in saying "Well, not the BEST computers, just the ones that makes me look better"

If you want ESC Manufacturers to build one, stop whining to us, because last I checked, I did not manufacture them.

This thread is going downhill, and will be closed, probably soon I am sure. There has been too much flaming going back and forth, and I hate when I personally am involved(yes, I am admitting I am right now)

[tadium54]

chizzler- my shoes have lasted me a long time. Decks have changed in the sense that they are alot lighter now

[CaseyMan]

dcommerce, 135$ right now for the controller i got.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p.pgm?Q=1&I=LXH205**&P=7

thats cheaper than most places. I wasnt talking bout just the controller. Guess i shoulda cleared that up a lil.


Wow tadium where are you shopping, go to CCS ( i think thats it ) u get trucks, wheels, board all for 100-120$ Ur making it sound like skateboarding is expensive. All shoes arent 150$ ur talking bout the godly pair that are ugly as **** that no1 wants :/ most run from 60-110$. Dang with those prices u must live in Canada eh?

[guggi101]

Why can't a sport esc have no motor limit. I will never race I am sure but I want to but a 9 turn in my car. So you mean to tell me I have to spend 90 to drive around my street. Ya we are compareing it to cheaper cimputer not to make us look better but because thats what we want in our esc. We don't want the best stuff because that cost more MONEY. We do want the older style technonlgy that cost them next to nothing to make. I know these companies can do this. And we never said you had to reply so don't make it souns like we dragged you into.

[chizzler]

tadium, i was trying to just say that they still cost the same as before, though yes, they have changed for the better. i know i cant say i can go back to riding an old skool deck!

just like novak had the cyclone, they came out with the tc2 which is slightly better.
lrp v6 to the quantum series.

[wjj]

High end computers use to cost over ten thousand dollars, now they are around 3000 to 5000 dollars, you are talking about special effects or 3d modeling computers.

[outsider]

Why would you close this thread? It's not getting offensive and people are sharing their own point of views. If you don't like the turn it's taking then don't respond. It amazes me when a publication sponsored bbs censors such trivial things when they themselves are only around because of the freedom of speech bestowed upon them. Let it live. This thread will die down into the fiery pits of obscurity in less than 2 days. Once it hits page 2 you won't have to worry about it.

If people didn't complain about outrageous prices, we'd be paying even more for RC parts.

[DerekB]

Mosty of you need to realize that you don't need the "High end stuff" to have fun. This hobby and sport is like anything else. There stuff that will let you have fun and there is stuff that is totally unnecessary, but is wicked cool. That's what this is about coolness right.

BTW, what ESC was $50 bucks and no motor limit? I'd like to check that.

[bubblejunky]

There are none!!! That is my point silly wabbit!!!

[draggerman11]

That esc back in the day with "no motor limit" was for motors then. A low turn mod then was a 15 turn, all that esc can handle is a 15 turn. I'm sorry dcommerce, but thats not true that "yesterdays technology" can produce an esc with no motor limit. If it could, all us bashers would be running them right now.

[DerekB]

I meant 10 years ago as one of the posts state that you could get an ESC with no motor limit for $50.

[bubblejunky]

Draggerman: I use a reedy sonic 2(brand new) 12 turn double with my novak 410 m5 sport esc. XXXER: If you read the original post, it says it is "410 M5 sport". I still have the original box for it, and right on the box it is stated as a sport model with no motor limit. Ten years ago, 12 doubles were not the hottest motor you could get, mind you. I used to run an old trinity "monster horsepower" (black can with pink sticker, remember?) 12 turn that was as nasty as I wanted it to be. I even run a speed gems topaz (11 turn) with that esc if I feel like it. It doesn't get too hot, and has never shut down, unlike my lrp super reverse with the same motor. I think the lrp's limit is a 13, and with the 12 double geared relatively low it will shut down due to its' thermal protection circuitry. The wires on the 410 are not even that large in diameter, so it could even be more efficient with some nice wire running from it. You really should not kill this thread. Maybe novak is watching!!

[CaseyMan]

dont mind dcommerce he thinks u can get a T2PCKA radio set for under 80$. he obviously is clueless, no offense to him of course :(

[combones]

Caseyman: You should be nice now. That link you posted to tower was for a radio, 1 s3003 servo, AND a futaba esc. If you pay $150 for a magnum jr. am radio, I think you would be the clueless one, no offense.

DerekB: I read my original post and can see why you misunderstood me. What I am trying to say is that I would like to see an esc for $40-50 that performs just as well as my 410 that I paid $90 for back then.

Do you really think dcommerce is clueless?

[CaseyMan]

i didnt say i payed 150 for it now did i, i payed 86 for it, look at my previous post where he was calling me stupid. and as for ESCs, why would they sell em for cheaper when tons of ppl are still buying them for the prices now :( we'd all like to see cheaper ESC's but they are a must for a fast car and the companies know that

[combones]

Caseyman, I think you should say you're sorry. You said you paid $86 for your magnum jr three years ago and that the EXACT same set up is going for $150 now. Then you posted a link to tower for a radio "setup" that INCLUDED futaba's esc. It is fact that you can get a futaba magnum jr am radio @ tower for under $80, I think they were just on sale for around $65 or so. You only said you bought a radio for 86 and that it is now 150, and that is what was responded to, not a radio/esc combo.
This brings up another good point. Now that everybody insists that you must have an FM radio or suffer severe interference and/or glitching problems, the prices of excellent am radios like the magnum jr are coming way down. I wonder if radio manufacturers will discontinue production of these "outdated" systems in favor of FM radios just to keep the price inflated.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/pump.gif

[CaseyMan]

wow you just totally lost me

[combones]

Quote "I also got my Futaba Magnum Junior 2PCKA-AM Radio for only 86$ 3 years ago.. now it sells for 150$.. hmm u guys jus seem to get screwed.." You are saying that you bought the magnum jr three years ago for $86. You did not mention that it came with the esc, if in fact it did( seems like too good of a good deal for a raio and esc). Then you replied with a hyperlink to tower showing the magnum jr WITH the M210CB esc for $135. Dcommerce said you can get the futaba magnum jr radio for under $80 and you responded by saying he was clueless. If you go to tower and check the price of the futaba magnum jr radio with one or two servos, you will see it for ~$80. You say that what you paid 86$ for back then is now 150$. No one ever called you stupid, and no one said you paid 150 for your radio. Please go back and carefully re-read the posts.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/deal.gif

[combones]

Draggerman? You said the 410 M5 sport could not handle one of todays mods. Are you sure? Do you own one? Just curious.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/sad/confused5.gif

[Grizzbob]

Ok, I think it's time I put in my 2 cents....the reason why we don't see cheap ESC's with no motor limit is because of the FETs, not chip technology. It doesn't matter how fast a processor it has, the efficiency of a speed control is in how good its FET's are, & to my knowledge they haven't made any quantum leaps in awhile, but it still takes a lot of sorting & testing by the manufacurers to end up with the efficiency we're accustomed to, & that takes time(& time is money). They probably sort through at least as many FET's as Trinity does battery cells, except in say Novak's case, they do ALL of it themselves, instead of shipping lots of them to other companies who help test(i.e. the other battery matchers). Also, there's the cost of research & development for new ESC's, & that costs money. Remember, ESC manufacturers do EVERYTHING themselves, no subcontracting, so there's always a fair amount of cost involved. That(in my opinion)is the real reason why good ESC's cost as much as they do. Remember the old saying..."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"...... :)

[combones]

I guess that will do it. I still think they are overpriced. Is there a shortage of good fets, or just a shortage of competition among esc manufacturers?

[outsider]

They should make an ESC that piggy backs on the back of a motor. They're so small now... The new quantums are 1x1 inch! And resistance is cut dramatically.

[guggi101]

First off, tower actully sells a 2 channel for 45 BUCKS. Also you have a point in saying there isn't much competition in the esc industry. We have lrp futaba and novak. Three companies isn't much. Look at kits, there is what like 5 or 6 manufacters and they still sell it for a ton. I think, wait i know these companies can produce a "sport" esc with no motor limit. I think we should take this post and send it to NOvak and LRP and r/c car action magazine. Then I think we will start to get more people on our side. I think if we start telling Novak then maybe they will see it and do something. If they know we will buy this product they WILL make it.

[draggerman11]

combones, I didnt say that. What I said was, that it had no motor limit when it was made. A15 turn was a low turn then. so it has a 15 turn limit. Thats all I said.

[HauntedMyst]

They should make an ESC that piggy backs on the back of a motor. They're so small now... The new quantums are 1x1 inch! And resistance is cut dramatically.

Actually, they should make a ESC/Receiver combo! Now that would be cool and space saving. Ever open you receiver? There is tons of empty space in there.

[XXXER]

Haunted Myst is all over it!

I WORK at a hobby shop, and he has nailed it, the kits are not where the money is made, it is in the parts.

Take this for example: My hobby shop gets the KE XXX for roughly 180 dollars a kit, we then, turn around, and sell them for 240 dollars. That is a 60 Dollar profit, not including the costs of shipping, etc. Look at me, I worked, not even 20 hours, and I got a paycheck, of about 100 bucks, for me, an employee, and car kits do not go out of the door every day, even.

You wanna play, you gotta pay, sorry, but that is the way it goes.

[bubblejunky]

Draggerman: You are saying that the above named esc (novak 410 M5 sport)has a motor limit of 15 turns. You are also saying that ten years ago, a 15 turn was the hottest motor you could buy. Both of these statements are wrong. The esc can and does handle todays hot motors, like a reedy sonic 2 12 double or a speed gem topaz 11 turn (triple?) without becoming very hot and with the use of only one of the two supplied heatsinks. I haven't tried anything lower yet, but I know it can handle it.
I have a few motors that are more than 10 years old, one is a 12 double, the other a 14 double. At the time when I bought them, they were not, by far, the hottest motors avaiable. My favorite motor is a 12 double, so that is what I bought then and it is what I buy now.
So the answer is yes, the 410 M5 SPORT was and still is a no motor limit esc.

[grandmasterofpool]

I don't think an esc./receiver would work. Wouldn't that cause all sorts of fun interference and stuff?

[Throtl Hapie]

It's simply the best way to make money (companies, you listening?) Sell an ESC with no motor limit for 50 bucks. EVERYONE would get one simply because it has no limit and it's 50 dollars. Nobody in their right mind would buy a $100 ESc that does the same thing if they could get one cheaper.

[guggi101]

Every one keeps asking if the companies are listening to what we are saying. Well i doubt to many companies come to this site. I am going to write Novak and LRP and see what happens. Anyone know LRP's homepage? I think if they start getting a lot of emails requesting the same thing they will do something.

[bubblejunky]

DerekB: I think it was bought in '91.? See if you can find an ad for the 410 M5 sport. They also made the M1(?) at the time which was the top of the line(I think). I am just referring to what is stated in the instructions for the 410 M5. It says specifically that there is no motor limit, versus a maximum amp draw rating. I'll have to look again at the instructions and I'll post the specs of this esc if I can find them. If they had no motor limit ratings back then, I then understand why it is labeled a "sport" yet has no motor limit.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: dcommerce ]

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: dcommerce ]

[guggi101]

OK we all keep posting how we want this esc here. Well this board doesn't produce esc's. NOvak has a similar board on their web site. We all should go there and start posting. That board is mantianed by novak employees. Heres the link www.teamnovak.com (http://www.teamnovak.com)

[draggerman11]

Ok dccommerce, I just read that in Novaks forum(Charlie posted it) since you drove them then I'll take your word for it. But, even if it did say it can handle a 15 turn and thats it, we all know it CAN handle more. Novak puts a "safety zone" on their ratings, so no one blows their esc. I have ran a 10 turn with a rooster, it ran COLD. cooler than it did with a 15 turn.

[guggi101]

There I start one there go check it out and write.

[paxil]

Isn't this just how the technology market works, the newer it is the more money your going to pay.

[combones]

I have found the instructions for the 410 esc. On page 8 and 9, in step 4 section 3( Hook-up Instructions) it reads "The 410 is designed to be used with 4 to 10 nickel cadmium cells(1.2V connected in series) in the main battery pack, and can be used with any motor-stock or modified-with any number of turns."
Right after that it reads "Since the 410-M5 is designed as an entry-level esc, it is pre-wired with the most popular battery and motor connectors for easy installation."
I also happened to find the receipt for this esc, and I was wrong about the price and time of purchase. I only paid $75 and bought it in February of '92, which would make it not quite 10 years old, but close enough.
Draggerman: You make a good point about being able to use a much lower turn motor than what the esc is rated for. That is what I do. However, does anybody tell you that when you go to buy? No. They threaten smoked units if the more expensive model is not purchased, instead of telling you that with proper gearing, you can go at least a few turns below manufacturer's limits. I even posted this same question a few months back and most people responded by saying you must follow manufacturers recommendations. I know you risk voiding the warranty using a lower than specified motor, but in reality, if it is too wild of a wind, the esc will shut itself down usually before it actually goes up in smoke.
Wow, over 60 responses!! Must have hit a nerve!
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/tales/frankie.gif

[RichieRich]

I have an old Novak 410 M5 sport too. I've run a Speedgems Diamond (12 double) for years and have had no problems at all.

[jeepinator]

Can I say something here ?

Heheh, thanks.

I think:

1) This hobby is pretty expensive. Period. It just is. I don't care about your computer hobby, or your Camaro collection, or your Horse breeding. It just doesn't matter. This hobby is expensive.
2) "If you wanna play, you gotta pay". Fine, I pretty much agree ... BUT this does not mean you should run around blindly spending your *** off. The simple "If you wanna play, you gotta pay" quip is pretty stupid on it's own. Most folks try to get the most for their money. If convincing others that something is overpriced (and possibly noting it on a public forum) can get you more for less, then it makes perfect sense to complain. Remember that complaining is a force that works. A complacent attitude will never get you what you want.
3) Like I noted on another thread, there are definately some valid reasons for the prices we are seeing. There are some not so valid ones as well. I think it is very difficult for us, as consumers, to see which is which on a product by product or company by company basis. This is where I see publications like RCCA stepping in to help. But, they don't. There may be some honorable resons, but I can't imagine what they are. I noted quite a while ago that I would like to see more "industry insider" type news in RCCA. More of the business end of the hobby. This suggestion was met with harsh critisism. Well, based on the sheer number of threads like this one lately, I feel vindicated. We clearly are asking, no screaming, for this type of info. Why has there been nothing about Tekin's status ? Don't you think it would be beneficial for RCCA's reader to have ? What about running a piece on why we should support the local hobby shop ... or at least the mechanics of what happens if we do/don't ?

Sorry for the rant ... I kinda got off track, but all my points are at least loosely tied together.

Thanks for reading ;)

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: jeepinator ]

[outsider]

jeep, I agree with all three points you brought up. Especially the last one. We want to know about the companies. their corporate attitudes, etc. It would give us insight into the hobby. What about interviews with drivers? Engineers at the hobby companies?

[DerekB]

I checked some adds from Novak and Tower from back in 88-90 and they never rated them with a "motor limit" just amp draw. So NO ESCs had motor limits and they still don't you can blow an ESC up with a stock motor if it draws too many amps.

[CaseyMan]

Draggerman, EXACTLY! its jus a safety guideline. I run a 11T double on my Rooster and my ESC NEVER overheats! Once i ran it all day and it was warm thats it. And i have the older model of rooster :/ kinda bulky but hey it works great! and damn the prices are so much more expensive now! i looked on novak website and the rooster is 140$ now! my god i got it so much cheaper. Some ppl are right, this hobby is getting outta hand price wise.

[guggi101]

O.k I sucked it up and "bit the bullet". My mom loaned me enough money to get a brand no Novak Doully(thats spelt wrong).But anyway, I put plugs on it and I love it. Man what a difference. I spent 120 to get it but its worth it.

[HauntedMyst]

I agree with you jeep. Well said. If you want to have an impact, you have to do a few things.

1. Use your voice via email, snail mail or telephone to tell these companies what you want. If they don't hear your wants, how are they to know what YOU want to buy. Has anyone here whining actually contacted these companies and told them what you want? I doubt many, if any, have done that. I have.

2. Vote with your wallet and tell your friends to vote with theirs. Buy from who you think has the right product at the right price, and boycott those companies that don't have your best interests at heart. This is equally as powerful. My LHS isn't going to order anymore Trinity SpeedGems when what they have is sold out. Apparently they are as unimpressed with them as I am. :) I hear this poop about how companies are only in business for money. Some are, most aren't. Sure they are in business to make money but good companies know they have to make what their customers want, over and over. Those that just take your money and run are doomed. When I do a portait for someone, as much as the money, I want them to be happy with it. It's not worth keeping their money if they aren't please. RC companies should think like this as well.

[jeepinator]

Wow, sorry to get OT here, but Speed Gems not being impressive ?
Hmmm... the only Trinity product I have purchased in the last 10 years has been those Speed Gems (oops, just remembered I bought a sway bar kit for my XX-4 way back when the XX-4 first came out). And, I have only bought like 3 of them.
I see them going for $25 some times ! Even if they sucked big time, they would be worth $25 ! Sheesh, those lame stock motors are going for $35 minimum (I think. I have not bought one of those in like 10 years too).
I agree that they are yesterday's technology, but who else has that good of a value ?

[HauntedMyst]

nsane, what difference do you see between yor fusion and your cyclone? I've had both, but can't say I see much difference. I do race and was considering going back to the cyclone.

[nsane]

My cyclone seems to have more punch, and I seem to carry more punch throughout the pack - I'm attributing it more to the fact that I'm using 12 gauge wire with the C2 and the Fusion is 16 gauge. The C2 also feels more "responsive" to me.

[nsane]

Amen brother Jeep :) Ok.. here's my .02

Jeep is right, this is an expensive hobby, how expensive is controlled by you, and your wallet. Haunted is right as well, if you don't let the manufacturers know what you want to see produced, they will go with what makes the most sense to them.

Take Novak for example - Do you think they actually make $140 on a C2? No way, they are probably selling it to the retailer (Lets say Horizon) for a 30-40% discount, that means they probably recovering about 60-70 dollars (the LHS or Tower, etc is adding another 15% or so on top of Horizons cut, thats how you get the 140) - now, subtract out reversed R&D costs, packaging, distribution costs, overhead, cost of the hardware itself, plus assembly. That means that if they are doing VERY well, they are making 30% profit, or about $20 per C2 sold. That 20 doesn't even cover the cost of paying one tech for 2 hours. I doubt anyone over there is getting rich quick.

From the non-racer point of view, they have an arguement, they'd like an affordable esc with good features (there are several out there, for example the Duratrax Streak (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?Q=1&I=LG3146&P=1) ).

From the racer perspective, I get what I pay for. Do I see a difference between my C2 and my Fusion? Absolutely. Could I beat Matt Francis if he was running a XXX with a duratrax esc and some unmatched packs racing off-road? Umm.... no :)


Ok.. rambling over, my point is pretty simple. Is Novak (or anyone else) FORCING you to put a 10 turn in your car? Nope. Unless you are a very good racer, will you use the power of a 10 turn effectively? Nope again. So why worry about it? Leave the 140 dollar gear to the race guys who want to purchase the extra competetive edge (maybe) and put an affordable ESC with a reasonable limit in your street basher and go have fun.

[combones]

A thread has been started at Novak's bb.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/yellows/a_smil17.gif

[CaseyMan]

nsane would u want to sell ur fusion if u went back to your cyclone? jus a quick questioN :)

[HauntedMyst]

I'm the one who would sell the fusion if I went to the cyclone. Email me at HauntedMyst@Yahoo.com with an offer.

[guggi101]

OK. I got a reply to my email. I sent Novak a email asking them about a esc that would be about 50 i got a reply bak saying that that info would be forwarded to the research and devlopment department.

[combones]

In other words, "wipe your arse"!

[CaseyMan]

lol combones, oh and novak does sell a 50$ esc :( if u didnt notice go look

[combones]

Which one? Is it on their site? Please elaborate.
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/person/hat.gif

[CaseyMan]

towerhobbies sells it for 50$. heres a link
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p.pgm?Q=1&I=LXBJ65&P=7

glad i got something right htis time hehe :) If i was the guy who sent novak an email to make a 50$ esc, id feel stupid right about now lol

[bubblejunky]

Caseyman, Caseyman, Caseyman. Tsk, tsk, tsk!! That esc is the explorer II. It has a MOTOR LIMIT of 15 turns. The origianl thread asks for a NO MOTOR LIMIT esc for that price.
Are you sure you finally got something right!! LOL. JK, of course.

[combones]

Poor Caseyman, you just can't win!
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/crying.gif

[CaseyMan]

*continues to smack himself repeatedly*

cant even spell right :o :o :o

[guggi101]

No caseyman i don't feel stupid. If i was you i would though. I read the whole post before i reply. I know they make the explorer sport 2 which can handle down to 15 turns. it cost 49.99. I even comes with connectors. I am going by memory hear so when i wrote that email i new what i was saying unlike someone :cool:

[AL2001]

Depends on the motor your usin. Big motors need expensive esc's, msc's will only take you so far. The cheapest esc I know of is $40.

[hawdoni]

Cool thread.

[GA Maxx]

You americans are very lucky with yourprices, your prices are cheap!!!! I wish i had your prices, A Novak GT7 is $220 here compared to $140 in states so quit complaining you dont know how easy you have got it! :mad:

[SegaBowMan]

well for me, $140 is like $220. I can't afford it. I could get a job but then my grades would suffer.

You americans are very lucky with yourprices, your prices are cheap!!!! I wish i had your prices, A Novak GT7 is $220 here compared to $140 in states so quit complaining you dont know how easy you have got it!

So you see, some people just can't afford that price. It may be an easier target than what you have but it's still high none the less. :D I know this thread is slightly old but I had to reply

[Real Lemons]

I answer to all your Prayers, This ESC is perfect and has a good price, Will handle a 12 turn motor or higher, i am currently running a 9 turn double motor with no problem.

check it out $39.99 at Tower hobbies, it is actually on sale right now for $37.99, I have two of these, one in each of my cars and have no complants at all.

http://www2.gpmd.com/image/d/dtxm1030.jpg

This is the DURATRAX "One-Button Set-Up" Speed Control, for Stock or Modified
Motors Down to 12 Turns, on 4-10 Cells. This is the FUTABA "J" connector
version. FORWARD ONLY! Has BEC circuitry.

FEATURES: Current limiter circuitry lets the modeler adjust the current to the
motor to help prevent wheel spin during heavy acceleration.
"One button set-Up" allows for a quick and easy speed control set up.
Digital glitch-prevention
Reverse voltage protection
Ultra high frequency gives smoother throttle response, cooler running
motors, and greater motor life.
ABS braking helps prevent wheel lockup during hard braking, allowing
harder and straighter stops.
Built in on/off switch lets the vehicle be turned at the flip of a
switch, not as soon as the battery is plugged in.

INCLUDES: Two black anodized heatsinks (one small, one large)
One Steak Speed Control Unit
Motor capacitor kit (Only Two Capacitors Used For Speed Control, One
Will Be A Spare)
Double-sided mounting tape (1" x 1")
One Schottky diode (silver line goes to positive)
Pre-installed standard type battery connectors
Pre-installed bullet style motor connectors
Pre-installed reciver connector,(FUTABA -- DTXM1031 is for Air)
Mounting and hook up instructions

SPECS: Voltage input: 4 to 10 cells (4.8-12V) On-resistance: .004 Ohms
Operating frequency:3500 Hz
Maximum current: 300 Amps Weight: 2.1 oz.
Case size: 1.64"L x 1.5"W x .66"H RX wire length: 10.5"
Batt wire length: 4.5"

COMMENTS: This is the FUTABA "J" version, also works with, JR, or HRC.
For the AIRTRONICS vesion, use DTXM1031.