13 turn motor only giving 23mph in my buggy, something wrong in my setup?

[Flyojumper]

I've had this Evader BX Pro buggy for about a month now and I bought a cheap Venom Fireball 13t to tide me over until my original motor was fixed (long story).
I know it's a cheap motor but it's still 13 turns and I was expecting my car to reach in the high 20s low 30s but I timed it on several occasions and it's only doing 23mph (on a 130ft straight on pavement).
I've made a google search on the Fireball 13t and I've found a post of someone using it who was getting his car to 36mph, but he didn't specify the type of car (touring maybe?).
Originally on factory timing it was running at 20mph on pretty much every pinion/spur combination between 18/88 and 25/88. I recently advanced the timing to the max mark on the can and I got it to run at 22mph on 21/88 and 23mph on 23/88.
The car's internal ratio is 2.66, regular 3.5" tires.
My battery is a Team Orion 3000mAH sports pack.
I cleaned the motor, all bearings on the car, inspected the brushes, etc and didn't find a problem as far as I knew.
Unfortunately I don't have a way to borrow a motor or battery from anyone to test them out.
Is that low speed normal for a cheap 13t? Does my setup has a problem? Any way I could diagnose it?
If that speed is normal and to be expected with my current setup, what's the cheapest way for me to get into the low 30s mph?

[bigair78]

Batteries is a major key. Those are cheap cells for the most part. You need to go with some GP's. Your local radioshack might have some left over from christmas. You can get a 6cell GP3300 for 24.99. If they don't have it they should be able to get it from another store. Start here and then go from there.

[shadowghost1]

Batteries do play a major roll, but the motor is the major part. You said it was a 13 turn but is it a single, double, triple, ect....? For the most part single will give you more torque while the triple will give higher rpm. Gearing can be tricky and you can lose alot with it, alot of people will overgear and kill the motor.
I have a Fantom 12 turn double with gp 3300's in my MF1 truck and it will run 40 mph with no problem, but its also a hand wound vortec Jesse Robbers edition motor.

[shadowghost1]

Oh I almost forgot, high 20's to low 30's is about right for your motor.

[Flyojumper]

Yes I forgot, the Venom Fireball 13t is a double wound motor.

Oh I almost forgot, high 20's to low 30's is about right for your motor.

Yep, that's also what I had in mind, that's why I'm surprised to only get 23mph, at max advanced timing and relatively long gear ratio at that...
I know my battery is not tip-top but I have heard from other people that even on sports pack 30mph is relatively easy to reach so I don't think my expectations of high 20s low 30 are unrealistic even with that pack. My pack is getting warm to hot, but nothing too drastic that would indicate that it severely limits the motor. For info, my 2 packs peak on my Super Brain 959 at 8.8-8.9V, after they have "calmed down" from the peak they are at 8.2-8.3ish when I start my run, and end up at around 7.3-7.5V when I end my run (when the car slows down drastically).

[doubleback]

I would take the timming down to 40, Just in case the timing marking isn't exact. You could be over the 45 and that could be causing some of you problems for slow such a slow speed.

[Flyojumper]

I would take the timming down to 40, Just in case the timing marking isn't exact. You could be over the 45 and that could be causing some of you problems for slow such a slow speed.

The thing is on factory timing (0 degree I believe), the setup was even slower (20mph). The markings on that can are not very wide so I don't think the max markings are past 24ish. Let me count and see how wide they are... From factory timing (neutral) to max advanced, it's 1/4" and they are 7 marks.

[Flyojumper]

I forgot to mention one thing that would lead me to believe that the battery is not the major limiting factor in my setup: the speed increase when I increased the timing on the motor. If the battery was not able to give the motor all it needed on neutral timing, then advancing the timing would not have increased my speed at all since the battery was already giving it all it could. So the fact that I had a speed increase (+3mph) by advancing the timing leads me to believe that the battery was not the limiting factor (that and of course the fact that some people have said that sport packs can be used up until the low 30ish)

[GuyIsDamGood]

It`s your motor. The Venom Motors aren`t that fast. If you put in a 10-Turn; you should reach 30-MPH.

-I use 1900 Sanyo Ni-Cd and a 13-Turn Reedy Ti Worlds Edition Motor in My TT-01 and TB Evo 4 and I reach 35-MPH easy.

If you want Real Electric Speed; use a Hand Wound Motor.

Take Care.

[Flyojumper]

It`s your motor. The Venom Motors aren`t that fast. If you put in a 10-Turn; you should reach 30-MPH.

-I use 1900 Sanyo Ni-Cd and a 13-Turn Reedy Ti Worlds Edition Motor in My TT-01 and TB Evo 4 and I reach 35-MPH easy.

If you want Real Electric Speed; use a Hand Wound Motor.

Take Care.

Thanks, so you think that guy saying he was reaching 36mph with a Fireball 13t was exagerating?
My ESC can handle 12t modified, so 10t is out of the question (I don't plan to change the ESC, that money will eventually go to BL). How fast would a good 12t handwound reach in a 2wd buggy (Evader Pro BX)? Any recommendation? 12x2 Cobalt 2? 12x2 V2 Revolution?

[Prelude14WRX]

If you are just messing around with your buggy, I'd get Team Orion's Revolution series. You can go a lot longer without cutting the comm...which you have to do a lot with mod motors.

[wanttorace]

hey guys i am kind of new to electic cars and had a couple of questions maybe some could help i just bought a novak ESC good till 15 turns and i bought a raven 15tx2 but i expected going from a stock silvercan motor that there would be night and day and yes it is faster but nothing i thought it was going to be is my expections to high or is that just not a good motor and if not can you tell what would be good.

[ElectricThunder]

Try gearing down a bit. 18/88 may be too numerically low for a 13 turn motor (even if it's not hand wound). Try 16/88 and see if that gets you anywhere. And advancing the timing just increases RPM and decreases torque. It really doesn't have much to do with batteries I think. GP 3300s will definitely give you a speed/acceleration increase, as their average voltage is higher, and more voltage means more RPM, which means more speed.

[Flyojumper]

Thanks for the advices but when I tried 18/88 the top speed sucked beyond belief as it topped out way too fast. Sure the acceleration was great but the speed topped out in a matter of a few feets and as a result the motor was running close to its max all the time and I was actually seeing higher temperatures than I am now with 23/88.
So not only it ended up hurting my top speed a lot but also heating my motor more. I will try 15 or 17/88 out of curiosity though, as soon as I receive a replacement part I'm waiting on (only have odd # pinions atm and the stock 18)
What bothers me the most in this whole ordeal is that I keep seeing posts from users (on different forums) getting speed of 24-27mph out of Evader BX RTR non pro (stock photon motor 20t) and several on sport packs.
Another guy was getting 35mph out of a SS5800 (apparently equivalent to a 12t brushed from what I've read) and he was using a stick sports pack that looked a lot like mine (saw the pic of his system).
I still think my setup is not quite performing like it should (was expecting around 27-30mph) :(

[ElectricThunder]

If 23/88 works better, then stick to that, or go even higher. Chances are if 18/88 made the motor run hot, 16/88 will be worse. I thought you had overgeared it, but I run STs, and forget buggies are lighter... :o :D

BTW-Just because they say they're hitting 24-30mph doesn't mean squat if they don't have proof...;)

[highroller]

Switching to a lower turn or advancing the timing doesn't increase the overal speed but changes the rpm levels or how quick the vehicle accelerates. Lower turn motors will produce higher rpms levels than motors with higher turns so all you are changing in how quick the motor reaches it optimum speed. Also advancing the timing too much will only make the motor get hot sooner and it power will start to fade or suck more juice out of battery much quicker. When ever you switch too a different turn or wind (going from a triple to single) or different turns (higher to lower turn), increasing timing you should also gear it a differently so lower in pinion size.
The reason you are only acheiving a 23mph speed could be many causes, driveline drag, esc not properly setup, too much electical resistance (poor connectors) and motor not properly maintained (even though brushes may look fine, they may have worn down to the point springs are not providing adaquate tension, if spring tension is too light that will not allow proper contact between the brush and comm). 36 degrees of advanced timing is normally used for 19turn oval, in other forms this setting is way too high - 24degrees is the norm (even in oval racing the pinion difference is about 2-3 teeth difference for those using 24 vs 36 degrees).
Check your radio settings, to be sure the throttle settings are correct, check esc to be sure it has been setup correctly. Check the drivetrain to be sure there is no binding, and when setting the lap on spur and pinion be sure the mesh has been set correctly. Unless you are racing keep the timing at the factory setting or using 12-24 degrees. How you charge the batteries will also have some effect, low rates will decrease the speed while increasing runtime slightly, 5amps rates will increase voltage output but shorten runtime slightly. Depending on which 3000 cells the pack is made from could be one problem the Panasonics never produced good voltage but Sanyo did produce a little better voltage and were more durable. Also how you take care of the battery will have some effect - try discharging the pack completely when done using it. Allow it to cool properly (1-3hours) then charge it to see how it works, it may take a couple cycles or pack may be on it way out.
For gearing there is never a precise number, even when looking at the recommended gearing charts from the motor manufacturer and vehicle manufacturer. Too many variables come into play: individual experience, motor setup and soon on. After you check everything over start with the pinion/spur combination that seem to yield the ideal speed then work with a 1-3 teeth range to see where you can peg the best speeds.