batteries

[aus jd 2703]

hey been looking round for some new batteries so far i found an importer here can get the cheapest. but i was looking at team integy and they said they had 1.24av cells is this true or are have they tamperd with the cells????
i also heard team orion use a system that increase the av but it doesnt last i dunno im quite new any way what are some cheap reputable brands??

[Battlepack]

3400 Ultras are great! We use to match GP3300's and these are better.
http://www.battlepack.com/images/ultra.jpg
thanks
Steve
www.battlepack.com

hey been looking round for some new batteries so far i found an importer here can get the cheapest. but i was looking at team integy and they said they had 1.24av cells is this true or are have they tamperd with the cells????
i also heard team orion use a system that increase the av but it doesnt last i dunno im quite new any way what are some cheap reputable brands??

[cr250]

hey been looking round for some new batteries so far i found an importer here can get the cheapest. but i was looking at team integy and they said they had 1.24av cells is this true or are have they tamperd with the cells????
i also heard team orion use a system that increase the av but it doesnt last i dunno im quite new any way what are some cheap reputable brands??
Contact SPC Batteries (http://www.specpointbatteries.com) . Great batteries with honest numbers and good people to work with.

[rcguy2477]

I sent you a pm explaining the integy cells, and my recommendation on what to get.

[aus jd 2703]

hey i checked all your matcher out and read ur pm's and nothing personal but i havnt heard of these brands and that makes me worry about sending like $400 aus to them cause thats alot of money to me. but a mate told me about an australian team (might be cheaper seen there local) who matchs a 35 amps and is getting decent numbers does any of there info sound wrong here's their site
http://www.harrisrc.com/
any way tell me what u think bout their numbers and methods thanks in advance

[cr250]

hey i checked all your matcher out and read ur pm's and nothing personal but i havnt heard of these brands and that makes me worry about sending like $400 aus to them cause thats alot of money to me. but a mate told me about an australian team (might be cheaper seen there local) who matchs a 35 amps and is getting decent numbers does any of there info sound wrong here's their site
http://www.harrisrc.com/
any way tell me what u think bout their numbers and methods thanks in advance

You have a PM

[gizmoguy303]

Look, here is some information that will help you. I am not going to send you a PM just to plug a certain brand.

Integy matches their cells at a 20amp rate. Therefore you cannot compare the numbers on an Integy label to labels of the more "standard" matchers that match at 30 amps. 90% of the battery matchers out there have numbers that can be compared. They match at 30 amps, 0.9v cutoff, etc with a CE Turbomatcher. Almost anyone can become a "battery matching company" if they want to. All you need is a zapper, Turbomatcher, and some loose cells. There are hundreds of different matchers out there. Trinity, Reedy, Orion, Peak...to name the big brands. Some smaller matchers are Pro-Match, SMC, etc.

Trinity uses the "standard" 30 amp method of matching. The Reedy "RealTime" batteries are discharged at 30 amps, but the avg. voltage is only measured for the first 5 minutes, which inflates the numbers. Novak uses their in-house designed matching system, so those numbers are also different from everyone else. Team Orion uses a method of varying the discharge rate to simulate actual race conditions. Although this may be a good way of matching, you cannot compare numbers on an Orion label to others of a different brand.

Almost any matcher that uses the standard way of matching will have decent cells. If the matching parameters are the same (30 amps, 6 amp charge, etc.), you can compare the numbers. Most matchers use a lot of the same equipment anyway, so it really comes down more to price. The company you mentioned looks good, but they also look very expensive. $85-$105 per pack is overpriced. Unless that is AUS; then I don't know what the conversion rate would be.

Matching used to be very good with the older cells, but it is slowly evolving more into a marketing ploy as cells become more consistent and the manufacturing technology becomes increasingly precise. There is a new company starting called AXXIS (http://www.axxis-racing.com), which has a completely different method of enhancing and matching cells. These advanced techniques will produce some of the best cells available on the market. They will have GP3300's, GP3700's, IB3800's, and a never-before-seen high voltage 3400 cell for stock racing. While you're checking out some of the brands I mentioned above, you should check out this new company as well.

I hope all this information helped you. If you have any more questions feel free to ask here or PM me.

[ikraj]

Hi aus jd 2703,

I have read all the postings and I have to tell you that the battery industry is a funny but mistirious business. Matching is not a precise science but more of a marketing scheme. With the advent of the newer cells everything has changed. Through testing and research we have found that some of the matching methods are bad for the batteries and the numbers just do not mean much. Matchers are selling batteries for up to $16/cell when the voltage is 1.185+. Let me tell you that most of the equipment used by the majority of the matchers is just not accurate enough to go to 3+ decimal places. There are so many variables that affect the voltage like charge/discharge rate, temperature, the power source that the matching machine is hooked up to, the calibration of the machine, how you read the voltage, how often you read it, when do you stop, etc. I could name tens of items that will affect the output voltage and numbers.

Most of todays high capacity cells will give you a very good voltage and running time if you assemble your pack the right way and the batteries come from a reliable source. We all get the batteries from the same manufacturer and there is no VOODOO magic to get a higher voltage out of a cell. I have seen people buy $120+ packs just to ruin them when they assemble or charge the batteries. Like I said, there are so many variables that as long as get your batteries from a reliable source and you build your packs the right way you cannot go wrong. All GPs and the newer batches of IBs are excellent. The one thing that I can tell you is that by testing batteries the right way, enhancing them with newer techniques that are scientifically proven, and trusting the company that you buy your packs and that the company will stand behind their product you cannot go wrong. Please do not be misled by the numbers...they are nothing more than numbers...and there is much more to batteries than just slapping them on a machine...

I don't say this to sell you one brand or another, I just want to inform and educate you so that you do not waste your hard earned money. I do represent a new company and I am proud of it. The thing I can tell you is that there are over 30 yrs of experience behind the products we produce and they are designed and tested by engineers. That might not be important to you or many people, but knowing how the batteries behave chemically, phisicaly, and electronicaly is important to us because that way we can enhance the available batteries to get a liitle better performance out of them. Now, batteries behave very strangely and they can vary from one day to another, that is why I do not believe in todays matching methods as a way to evaluate and assign a value to a cell.

I hope this helps you. As long as you get your batteries from a reliable source I don't think you can go wrong. At http://axxis-racing.com Axxis Racing we believe in providing the best possible batteries to our customers, and our professional staff is allways there to provide the best possible technical support. We do stand behind our products because we know who the competition is, what they do, and most important, what we do to the batteries in order to provide a reliable and outstanding source of power.

ikraj
Axxis Racing
http://axxis-racing.com

[Grizzbob]

I'd tend to agree with that, though I do believe some of the matchers that do use the CE TurboMatcher stuff actually do know what they're doing & can produce reliable numbers. I've had packs from different matchers where the numbers looked practically identical(& I'm talking about voltage in the 1.181-1.184 range per cell), but on track, one was most DEFINITELY superior to the other(but I won't name names, I'll just say that the pack that proved itself truly better on the track became the brand I still use today, & my friends know who it is). And I do believe from what I hear & have read that that matcher is VERY careful in the conditions they utilize to condition & test their cells in, & I've NEVER been disappointed with any pack I've bought from them(Oh, & the matcher I rely on is Fukuyama, btw). It really just comes down to that, who you feel you can trust..... :cool:

[ikraj]

I'd tend to agree with that, though I do believe some of the matchers that do use the CE TurboMatcher stuff actually do know what they're doing & can produce reliable numbers. I've had packs from different matchers where the numbers looked practically identical(& I'm talking about voltage in the 1.181-1.184 range per cell), but on track, one was most DEFINITELY superior to the other(but I won't name names, I'll just say that the pack that proved itself truly better on the track became the brand I still use today, & my friends know who it is). And I do believe from what I hear & have read that that matcher is VERY careful in the conditions they utilize to condition & test their cells in, & I've NEVER been disappointed with any pack I've bought from them(Oh, & the matcher I rely on is Fukuyama, btw). It really just comes down to that, who you feel you can trust..... :cool:

Hi Grizzbobb,

>>>It really just comes down to that, who you feel you can trust..... :cool
I agree 100% with you.

I want to clear one thing, under no circumstances have I said nor inclined that matchers do not know what they are doing. I am familiar with the majority of the well known matchers out there and I know how they do their matching. Actually, about 90% of the matchers follow the same basic procedure, that is why I said that there is no VOODOO magic to matching. The issue is if they can enhance the cells by chemicaly altering the insde of the battery. We have found throgh extensive research and testing a way to equalize the cells, ergo the name Hysteresis Enhanced Batteries from Axxis Racing (http://axxis-racing.com) Our system is in the process of obtaining a pattent since we have proven scientifically that it works.

In my opinion, there is a major problem matching batteries at a constant rate, and I will tell you why. There is a formula that states that E=IR which means, Voltage=Current X Resistance. Now if we manipulate this formula and look for current (I) the formula becomes I=E/R. R is a constan, by that I mean that R is the internal resistance of the motor, battery pack, wires, Esc...) and in all cases that should be used as a constant resistance. Being such, as the voltage decreases in your pack the current will decrease. If at the beginning when your battery is able to provide 1.215+V (as an example)and you are pulling 30Amps that means that the R that the battery sees is equivalent to 0.04 ohms. Now, at the point when your pack is down to 1.15V it can only supply 28.75A, when it gets to 1.0V it will supply 25A and at 0.9V it will supply 22.5A. do you see what happens, a decrease of almost 8 amps with less than -222mv (-0.222V.) We call that DELTA I over DELTA E (the changes of current/the changes in voltage) Our system has taken that into consideration and we use a similar load to evaluate a cell. We try get as close to race conditions as we can, there are other things that we do every x seconds but that is our secret... By testing and equalizing cells under the Axxis (http://axxis-racing.com) Hysteresis system we achieve a steady state condition in the batteries in order to get the highest HORSE POWER possible. As you can see I am not looking at numbers and voltages to match batteries. Like you said, its funny how the numbers are at times so close yet you can feel the difference in performance...There are very honest matchers out there that their numbers are very close to what the batteries actually do, but in reality these numbers do not mean much. They are basically a means of comparison. When a battery is matched over a 24-48hr cycle it is almost impossible to get very accurate and consistent numbers.

Now, the way that you have decided to buy your batteries is the right way. You found someone that can give you batteries that you feel comfortable with when you are racing, not when you are looking at the numbers. To me, that is the best way. Even if his numbers are way off and lower than others, his batteries perform, and that is the most important factor. At Axxis Racing (http://axxis-racing.com) we are doing everything we can to provide our customers with batteries that perform, regardless of numbers. Our batteries do not have numbers on them...when we test we come with a factor that we use (a number based on many variables). These numbers take into consideration many variables including but not limited to, charging current, voltage at different times, IR at different times (not only at the 2 min mark) etc, etc... Based on these numbers we put packs together. Now, one battery might be a 438 another a 432 another 419 etc...based on Turbo matcher numbers...but when we put the pack together we are looking at the overall performance of the pack as a whole not as individual cells. That is what makes Axxis Racing (http://axxis-racing.com) different from other battery matching companies. Our sysyem looks at the entire pack as a whole into consideration, not individual cells. Using the VOLTAXX Hysteresis system we can measure this and thus try to give our customers batteries that will perform and last. This system is much more easy on the cells thus you get a longer life out of your pack.

I hope this will help all of you understand what we are doing. In essence at Axxis (http://axxis-racing.com) we are trying to give the R/C world a more reliable and affordable HIGH QUALITY, HIGH PERFORMANCE battery pack.

Please understand that under no circumstances this is a sales pitch, it is just to educate and inform the R/C enthusiasts of new advents and procedures that we have created through extensive research and testing. Our ultimate goal is to make Axxis Racing (http://axxis-racing.com) a reliable and honest supplier of high quality GP, IB, and AR batteries to the R/C market.

Through engineering, design, and innovation Axxis (http://axxis-racing.com) is providing newer technology to test and measure the quality of GP, IB, and AR batteries. We are raising the STANDARDS.

THANKS.

ikraj
Axxis Racing (http://axxis-racing.com)

I hope this will be helpfull to most of you. :)

NOTE:
VOLTAXX, Hysteresis enhancing system, and AR are trademarks of AXXIS RACING
GP and IB are trademarks of their corresponding manufacturers.

[aus jd 2703]

what about fusion batteries they seem very respectable???

[rcguy2477]

I can tell you from experience that the Fusion packs are very good. But don't compared their numbers to other matchers as they cutoff at .95 volts instead of the .9 "industry standard". Also, don't buy their packs just because they have a heat sink on the battery bar. This heat sink is physically to small to work effectively.

[ikraj]

I can tell you from experience that the Fusion packs are very good. But don't compared their numbers to other matchers as they cutoff at .95 volts instead of the .9 "industry standard". Also, don't buy their packs just because they have a heat sink on the battery bar. This heat sink is physically to small to work effectively.


There is one thing I want to clarify about matching. Many of you seem to believe that the 0.9v cutoff is an "industry standard" and that is a misconception about the battey business.

What I am about to write is not to offend anyone nor is it to say that one way is better than another. What I will try to do here is educate most of you as of what battery matchers do so that you can make better educated decisions when purchasing batteries.

First of all, there are NO BATTERY INDUSTRY STANDARDS set for the R/C industry. If we would have them there would be a standard designation. For example, we could have an IEEE or an ISO designation. We do not have either nor do we follow any standards. To set standards, the cutoff voltage is not the only thing that needs to be taken into consideration. There are so many items that set standards so that every one would follow the exact same procedures and techniques. For example, we would have to set a machine calibration standard, a power supply current standard, enviromental temperature standards, battery temperature control, and the list goes on and on. I am not going to write a battery standards essay here. What we have in the R/C business are not STANDARDS but similar procedures that matchers follow. Most of the matchers use the same machine to test. However, calibration, maintenance, and the way they operate are very important. These machines are measuring voltages down to the millivolt and it is so easy to be off. So, are you really getting a 1.185 or is it a 1.179 or 1.187 or 1.182 and so on...Since there are no SET STANDARDS even when several matchers show the same procedural methods on the stickers (by their numbers) that does not mean that you are getting an accurate reading for comparison between companies and sometimes even within the same company.

There are matchers out there that take very good care of their equipment and do try to control as many variables to get consistent readings, but even these vary from company to company. My point is, are you really getting what the numbers say...I leave that to your decision. Based on my experience I think not...and I have bee doing this for over 25 years. One thing I have found is that with the quality of the cells and because there are so many variables, a pack that is matched at this moment may not and will probably not be matched in a few cycles.

I think that the best way to evaluate your batteries is by performance...you know which are your better packs... I have seen packs with lesser numbers be superior to better numbered packs. To keep a packed matched means continuos testing and rematching of your batteries on an ongoing basis.

Can we really use the numbers to compare battery packs, only you can answer that. I am not going to be biassed or try to force my opinions upon you, all I am trying to do is give you some known facts. I have answered so many questions regarding battery issues and some of you have very interesting questions. That tells me that your curiosity is there and that is good. The only way that battery matchers will obey and set a standard is if the consumers demand a standard. If you would show the lack of interest and you would not overpay for what some people call 1.185+ (or whatever) maybe the industry would shift and align itself in the right direction.

I call for the battery matchers to get together and establish a standard so that the consumer will benefit. I have wondered many times why this has not been done. You think about it. Come to a conclusion why nothing has happened over the last 20+ yrs.

I believe that it is time to set standards so that buyers can compare on an equal basis the quality of batteries, but the way our industry is I doubt that will ever happen.

Please note that this is only an opinion. An opinion based on knowlege and facts, not on hypothetical and uninformed thinking.

Hopefully most of you will understand where I stand and what I believe. This is not because of issues that would benefit me or my business involvement, but in the contrary. I say this to benefit the people that spend their hard earned money on batteries. You desrve better and maybe then a lot of the confusion about whom to buy from and what is better will be over with.

Thanks. :)