Porsche 935 - a running build thread

[AirBoston]

mikevillena has offer to get me started on this project by building the scale motor, so as I get some time to work on this car, I'll post my progress here.

To start, I bought a vintage Associated 1/8 scale gas pan car. The orginal owner builds cages for 1:1 race cars, so be built an aluminum cage, floor pan and cool race seat for a display. I descided to buy this and build a concours car. I think electric will be the best bet for power.

Here's what I started with (minus 10+ years of dust and dirt).

[AirBoston]

nuther pic

[AirBoston]

back side - nekid

[AirBoston]

I'm starting to think about a new concept for this big car. I just found a poster in my closet of a Martini 935. I may just got with that look.

1/8 vs 1/24 scale P-cars

[mikevillena]

While AirBos is getting the chassis started, I've gathered my materials including some superb reference photos of the 930.001 crankcase that AirBos has kindly provided. I'll post as soon as I get further along. Mike V.

PS. AirBoss..you can have ADM. move this to a new and parallel thread. Sorry, I stuck to your thread. :o

[72montedude]

This is going to be awesome to watch. I love that aluminum cage and racing seat. Very very nice

[kitty]

Big ditto on what 72montedude said! I'm really looking forward to seeing this baby in progress. Great detail work so far! I wish I had a friend who builds cages for 1:1 vehicles. If I had a solid cage for my Savage, I might not go through bodies so quickly. Time for me to contact Skeeze (a fellow Savageer so to speak) and get in line for one of his Delrin cages.

This is gonna be one sweet thread/build for sure =)

[AirBoston]

Mike, Please post all of your engine process pics here too. I thik keeping it all together would be great. I also figured I'd as you some build questions in public for the interest of a few. I like many (most?) have never built something like this.

[NotWalkinBlind]

I've got a question; to simulate engine coolant, do you use real coolant, or just water with a little bit of green and yellow food coloring in it?

[AirBoston]

Coolant, we don't need no stinkin coolant!

But being that this is an air cooled Porsche, we will need lots of seeping oil Dry sump cars don't leak, but they do mark their territory well.

Mike, if we're going with a twin turbo model, that won't have water cooled heads; or will it?

[ducati777]

Wasn't the 935 one big stinkin KKK turbo?

My memory might be wrong, but I love the wide body 935 look. You also have the lil tiny 914 up there, another of my favorites. Other kick ass Porsches would include the 962 Le Mans cars, and all their variations, and the Can Am cars, the.... 917 was it? That thing made like 1100 HP, had an adjustable wheelbase, carried 110 gallons of fuel, and was an absolute beast.

[NotWalkinBlind]

Yup... the 917-30 put out 1100bhp:
http://www02.exoto.com/Collectibles/RacingLegends/Porsche917-30/Menu.asp
http://www.cknet.org.uk/html/917_30.asp

[ducati777]

Yup... the 917-30 put out 1100bhp:
http://www02.exoto.com/Collectibles/RacingLegends/Porsche917-30/Menu.asp
http://www.cknet.org.uk/html/917_30.asp

Wow, they actually meant it when they said "Furious Detail" :eek: :D

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF STINKERS!!!!! :p Just when I thought I could wean myself from chiming in on the juicy threads and concentrate on getting stuff done......GEEEEZZZZ NOW you get me going again!!!!!! :p :p :p I TRIED TO GET AWAY.....BUT NOOOOOOO....They sucker me back in :D Just kidding gang. You're all A-1!

NotWalkin - I use water with some watercolor as you stated. Just make sure you've got the ends capped. And don't use alcohol...I tried it once (the big bag of duh that I am) and it lasted about a week in the tubing ( Speaking of which, I used a lenght of R/C fuel tubing and strechted it over a candle to get very small diameter tubing for the washer on the Miata). At least it stayed a little longer than the coolant normaly does on my piece of !#%$^&!!!! R-5 even when the head gaskets were'nt blown...

AirBoss - According to my somewhat sparse 935 library : If we're going with the early 935's (up tp '76) they had a single KKK turbo (as mentioned by Ducatti who is indeed another connoiseur of obscenely fast cars and bikes BTW..I've had a chance to ride behind my buddy's old Desmo Super Sport (900?). The Del'Orto's (I'm not sure how to spell them) were acting up that day and so the Duc was spitting four foot flames on the overrun...and the glorious sound... wow!!! My teeth were rattling inside my full-face :cool: )
Anyway, anything after 1976 the factory went with twin tubos (smaller Porsche units) with a different water/ air intercoolers (except for the 2.0 litre "BABY" with a single and the smallest water/air unit). I think they switched to air to air in '78 because they could incorporate the intercoolers into the slightly bigger rear "aerodynamic aids" bodywork of "Moby Dick". I'm not sure as to when they went to water cooled heads...??? I'll build the block with air cooled heads and hold off on the intercoolers and turbos to give us more time to nail it down. I've posted what little progress I've made. I spent some time poring over a cross section assembly drawing of a 930 engine. Unfortunately, I don't know what scale it is so I"ve had to measure and convert as I go. At least I've got the Tamiya 1/20th kit to scale from too.

Ducati777 (nice bike) You are correct in stating 917. It was the 917/30 with twin turbos, 1000+ bhp, alloy front and rear spaceframes that M. Donohue and G. Follmer drove and scared everybody away in Can-Am. I believe the car was snapping universal joints left and right so they went with huge "giubo" rubber couplings and titanium halfshafts. He also drove a 917-30 with twin intercoolers, a 5.0 litre engine (as oppposed to 5.4 litre as used in Can-Am for the sake of longevity), 1,100 bhp and spun aluminium wheel covers to set the absolute closed circuit speed record of 221.120 mph at Talladega. The car topped out at 238 mph on the straights. M. Donohue was killed a few days later in an F-1 practice session. I believe Can-Am legislated the Porsche 917's out after 1973 because no one could touch them. Mark Donohue's record stood until 1979 when Mercedes-Benz used a special "Rekord" car to go 238 mph at the Nardo test track in Italy. The adjustable wheelbase car that you're thinking of is the chassis no. 917/30.001 with a 4.5 litre engine as driven by Herbert Muller to win the Interserie Champoinship in 1973. I'm hard pressed to think of another manufacturer (including Ferrari) that has dominated and continues to dominate motorsports on so many levels. 956's, 962's, the GT1's man... Oh well, back to my workbench. thanks for the session gang! :D

PS. I've just clicked on the link..yeah baby!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[mikevillena]

PS. AirBoss....drysump and leaking oil it shall be!!!!!!

[NotWalkinBlind]

Soy sauce mixed with a little chocolate syrup oughta work real well for that.

[mikevillena]

NotWalkin,
If you're suggesting I use your formula to seal the headgaskets on the f*$%ing Renault, I've already tried that :p

Actually, I think you use that stuff to simulate oil in scale...right? Uh...I think I might still have some soy sauce from the three week old chinese take-out in the fridge....I'll also be harvesting the fibers growing out of the box and I'll weave some scale carbon fiber out of it.... ;) But since I'm out of chocolate syrup (yum) I'll have to go with the old standby of Tamiya Acrylic Smoke (in the jar) thinned with water and washed onto the fins of oil sumps. :D Oh, and don't forget to cut up some thin latex gloves, paint the pieces and lay them on the ground or on the engine. Because the latex is extremely thin and flexible, it makes an excellent "scale" rag with which to wipe up the 935's "oil" leaks. Oh and to make the flexible ductwork for the brakes......coil some soft thin wire tightly around an appropriately sized armature (tubing) about thirty or forty times (depending on how long the section is), pull the coil apart and adjust the coil spacing while it's still on the armature. Then slip the now properly spaced coil off the armature and hang it up by one end so that it's vertical. Thin some white craft glue with a little bit of water and paint it onto the coil with a wide soft flat brush. Depending on the brand of glue, you'll have to apply multiple coats. Practice with mixing and the brand of glue will yield a lenght of "scale" flexible (within limits of course) ducting. If you want to get slick, use two separate lenghts of wire, coil them just right to get the two "close", wide gap, two "close pattern of real ducting. Even slicker if you tint the glue first with some orange so that the shiny silver coil shows through. Pretty slick, don't cha' think?

[mikevillena]

Hi gang,
Just a quick update. I'm still trying out different approaches to building the crankcase halves. I've tried a one piece approach (a single piece per half) plus separate dry sump. I used .040 thk. plastic but cracked it whilst trying to bend the plastic to duplicate the curved surface of the crankcase...Oh well, I'll have to experiment with a different approach. :D

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench008.jpg

Also trying out photobucket..hope this works

[mikevillena]

Two steps forward, one and a half steps back

I went and tried a different approach with the crancase blanks. Used another piece of .040 thk. plastic, located and drilled my holes. Because Evergreen doesn't make tubing in the correct 1/8th scale for the cylinder bore, I imrpovised using lenghts of smaller diameter tubing that were glued to the crankcase blank. To these, I wrapped and glued some pre-cut .030 x .030 strips to begin simulating the cast and machined "lands" that the cylinder blocks bolt on to. I'm going to let the glued joints dry overnight before drilling my holes (8 per cylinder) through which I will insert and glue some lenghts of 7/32 dia. tubing, trimmed and blended to continue the build-up of the "lands". Normally, I would build simple boxes to simulate the engine block and apply external details. I thought I'd try a more detailed approach since I've never built a Porsche "boxer" especially in 1/8th scale. If anything, it just goes to prove that with scratchbuilding, half the fun is making mistakes and trying different approaches.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench011.jpg

[Piggy89373]

Mike, good call on the photobucket. However, for ease of viewing, need to resize the pics to about 400X600. That'll give you about the size you need with good clarity. Other than that, I, like many others, will be closely following this thread with great interest.

[mikevillena]

Hi Gang,
Sorry about my clumsiness in posting huge pics (my bad!!). I did'nt know how to resize them once I got them up on photobucket the first two times. I've just resized these and I hope it works....

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench013.jpg
Because the reference photos were distorted enough that I couldn't get accurate measurements consistently (although still very useful) I've had to eyeball things. After I've allowed the glued joints to fully harden, I located and drilled the holes. I sized them properly to obtain a snug fit for my 7/32 tubing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench014.jpg
I managed to find my old "Chopper". This puppy really comes in handy whenever I've had to cut uniform pieces. I believe I got it a long time ago from the model railroad section. Anyway, I used it to cut 24 pieces of tubing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench015.jpg
I fitted and glued the pieces of tubing to make the "lands". I also glued on some pieces of strip for the "journals". I'm going to set it to dry and then I'll use some spot putty to blend everything. See you in the next post.

PS. Thanks Piggy :D

[mikevillena]

BTW...
AirBoss - I hope you post some more pics of that 1/24th scale 914 that's in progress in your big n' little pic. It looks like you've got the whole thing masked off with patterns for number roundels? Wow..

[AirBoston]

Guess i need to find some time to finish off my other stuff so I can start working on the 935.

I think the aluminum floor pan will need to go, it's just not to scale and not easily workable. I hope I can match the existing cage with plastic. Otherwise my job of tying in the front trunk area will be very difficult.

Mike, How important is it to have a running chassis prior to building?

[mikevillena]

Hey AirB,
I'm in the same boat as you are, trying to work around existing customer projects and the other mundane stuff (like housekeeping, etc.). I think these guys and gals won't mind if we make slow progress.
I think you might do well to ditch the aluminium floorpan. I probably wouldn't copy the rollcage either as I suspect that it's not accurate. Although I haven't used "Midwest's Super Styrene" (it's supposed to be easier to bend) you might want to give it a shot. Another suggestion is to go with solid tubing as opposed to hollow to avoid kinks in small radii bends. I think it's great that you'll be detailing the trunk as well. Do you need reference dimensions for some of your structures? I have the Tamiya 1/20th scale kit and I can lift baseline dimensions.
It could make it easier for you to have a running chassis before building as having the motor, batts and electronics in place will give you a good idea of how much room you'll have to work with. However, since we're working in 1/8th scale, you can probably just wing it as you go. I've built complete tranny's and engines before and I've had to cut and hack them to make them fit. You're the lead builder so either way is cool with me. :D

PS. I think your bodyshell is a 935/77 because of the longtitudinal bulges on the front fenders. The 2 litre "Baby" 935/2 also had those bulges :confused:

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,

I had to toss what I've built to date because I overlooked the curved surface that the crank bores are machined through.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench016.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench019.jpg

I also tried a different approach on drilling and slipping the pieces of 7/32 dia. tubing to eliminate the twisting and the warping. I began to build up the rest of the crancase half and I'll be locating and grinding out areas to accomodate all of the other features such as camshaft drivechain housing halves, oil galley bosses, etc.

[ducati777]

This may sound like a stupid question... but....

Initially I thought you were assembling a plastic model of the motor. But it appears you're building your own scale motor? Whoa....

I'm in awe.

[mikevillena]

Hey Duck,
Yeah, I'm trying to scratchbuild a 1/8th scale boxer. I'm working off of some excellent photos that AirBoss sent me and I managed to scrounge up a single view assembly drawing from a Porsche book. I've had to eyeball stuff as I go, so you'll probably see me making mistakes and re-making some of the parts. I'm also trying out new approaches. Nah, this is nothing special. Anyone can do this stuff.

I've made a little progress:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench020.jpg
I've started to do more shaping on the crankcase by adding the inclined surface. I've also marked out some more cuts to be made. I added the oil galley bosses that I believe supply oil to the heads via tubes. I've applied some DupliColor Scratch filler/primer to the seams as a first step in blending everything.

[EvaderSTKid]

So, what? Is the motor going to be functional? Woah...

[mikevillena]

Hey EvaderSTkid,
I initially thought about just a dummy engine but as I started having fun, I decided I'd try to incorporate some working features. It won't be a full function engine (i.e. starting and running on gas) and I'm still working out the bugs with the cams but I've figured out how to replicate the timing chain in 1/8th scale and in plastic. This should be fun!
Mike V.

[Silent Scope]

Looks good so far! Keep up the good work! A++

[ducati777]

Pretty slick man. Anyone might be able to do it, but few actually do! Keep it up man, we're all watching.

[NotWalkinBlind]

Mike, you're kidding about cams and timing chain, right?

[AirBoston]

Maybe the teamwork thing won't work. There is NO way I'll be able to produce a car for this motor to go in that's worthy of such a piece.

Mike I was studying the body this weekend and am starting to think this is a long tail car. It's not an ordinary 935 from what I can tell thus far.

[NotWalkinBlind]

If by longtail, you're referring to the Moby Dick 935, that's not what you have.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/NotWalkinBlind/porschemobydick.jpg

[NotWalkinBlind]

If you lowered the ride height a good bit and redid the rear wing and deck, you might be able to make this one... I can't tell from the photos of your body if the front dam is the same, however.

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,

AirBoss - It's cool bro...don't think about "levels" of detail..as this is a learning experience for both of us. I'd rather we both had fun and got a few giggles out of this. Judging from the attention to detail that you've exhibited on your other rides, I don't think there is any desparity at all.

I believe that we're working with a 935/77 bodyshell and not the long-tail "Moby Dick" as Notwalkin correctly pointed out. In 1977, the factory got very creative with interpreting CSI Rules and moved bulkheads, the cockpit floor and suspension pick-up points among other things. The factory also switched to twin standard Porsche turbos with (2) Porsche waste gates from the single KKK turbo and (1) Garret waste gate to improve throttle response in slow corners.
Max torque remained at 434 lb/ft and power at 630 bhp/8000rpm. Of note is the extensively revised rear window/fender/spoiler area. They actually left the original production rear window in place and faired in a new window on top of that to smooth the airflow to the rear spoiler. The fairing also sported air intakes on either side to feed the re-designed water/air intercooler. Oh, and the new rear "aerodynamic aid" tail assembly had to cover the standard Porsche "Whaletail" which had to remain in place per CSI Tech Regulations ;).

Duck and SilentScope- Thanks for the compliments guys!!! :D

Notwalkin - Hey dude, thanks for the nice pictures. Good call on the diffrence between the late "longtail" conversion and another late 935/76 conversion. :D :D Where are you scoring these gems? :confused: I tried to make functional chains out of shaved plastic tubing, but they kept breaking so I'll have to build the camshaft drivetrain stationary. Unless I run out of time, I'll build the left valve covers and timing chain cover to be removable to show off the camshafts and the chain. I'll probably look into learning how to photoetch in brass one of these days.

BTW....a minor point....There is only one 935/78 "Moby Dick" (chassis no. 935.007) ever built by the factory. It was retired at the end of 1978 and now resides in the "Museum" next to the "Baby". After 1978, a few Porsche 935/76's were converted to the longtail 935/78 bodywork by various tuners. They also copied the "inverted" gearbox as pioneered by "Moby Dick" to lessen the halfshaft working angles. The 935 longtail in your picture sports the full door fairing which was illegal in 1978 so "Moby Dick" had to race with partial door fairings and no NACA ducts. The "pontoon" style wheelweel cutouts also came after "Moby Dick's" retirement. :D


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench031.jpg

[mikevillena]

Duh...I forgot pics of the valve gear drive chain:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench033.jpg
I had to practice to be able to shave thin sections from some tubing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench034.jpg
I didn't have the correct diameter tubing to make rollers so my spacing was "wonky". I'll set this sub project aside for now. I just thought you guys and gals might get a giggle out of it.

[Piggy89373]

Mike, awesome work man!! You keep saying that anyone can do this...I used to have the same thoughts until I tried to teach my wife to paint, and it was then I learned, not everyone can do this. Regardless, things are looking great, man. Can't wait to see the finished product.

[NotWalkinBlind]

Mike, googling works for me on finding pix.

AB, could you take a pic of your car in profile against a black or very dark background? That would probably help in finding which 935 it is.

Here are a few... a good many in profile... just keep clicking on the next arrow ===>

http://www.speedpictures.de/oldies/pages/Porsche%20935.htm

[NotWalkinBlind]

Here's the wildest 935 yet.

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
Piggy - It's true man, anyone can do this stuff. Okay, remember when you first picked up your airbrush? You probably weren't sure of what you were doing, but you went on ahead and painted your first body shell. And you got better with every bodyshell that you've painted since then. You got the "feel" for it, exactly how much pressure to use and how much to thin the paint to get the result that you wanted. If you messed up, you tried on the next bodyshell. So, you started with some basic skills and you refined those skills until you started pushing the "envelope" of what you are capable of. That's the wonderful thing about acquiring and improving "skill sets". When I first started scratchbuilding, I went with simple and crude boxes. With every attempt, I got the "feel" for how the plastic can be worked and how far I can bend, twist and manipulate it. I started using other "shapes" that Evergreen made to minimize my having to build tiny "sub-shapes". I learned to cut sections and pieces from strips and shapes and incorporate them into the "whole" to save time and grief. I still approach each project with a simple philosophy...I look at the whole part as being made up of smaller simple shapes. This 930 engine is the most complicated scratchbuild that I've attempted thus far. And while it is still comprised of small shapes, there are simply more of them. So, don't be intimidated with anything that looks complex. And don't worry about making mistakes...I make them all the time as I'm nowhere near the mastery of plastic scratchbuilding. :D

Notwalkin' - Man, those are nice pics....thanks for the link as I am sure to return to it again and again.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench035.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench036.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench037.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench039.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench040.jpg

[kitty]

Well, now that I can post again.. My cable modem was out most of the day yesterday and when it came back on, I only got about 30 minutes of online time in before it went out (along with the TV cable) right as I was posting in this thread. That said...

Mike, that engine keeps getting better and better. I'm sure that the flywheel will end up looking more and more like the real thing as you go along. I'll post further down what I wrote last night. I made sure I copied it to a text file, just in case and I'm glad I did. Whew!

NWB, you definitely have some great sources for pictures. I would request links to some 356s (A, B or C) but I'm afraid that would just upset me even more, seeing as how I probably will never be able to own one and non one makes a RC shell like those.

Anyway, here's my post from last night:
Dang, man. I am constantly amazed by the work some of you guys do with fantastic atttention to detail. I never would have thought that someone could produce a model engine that small that included moving parts, much less the minute details you are creating.

Mike, I've seen some pretty small chains that look like motorcycle sprocket or timing chains before, but I'm not sure exactly how small that engine block is that you're working on. The tiny chains I've seen were attached to key rings and other things that people get out of gumball-type machines. One of those might be too big for this project, though.

ps: I love the eloquence of your writing - such rich use of the English language.

[Piggy89373]

Mike, see what you've done?! You've put all this effort and detail into scratch building an engine, described it all (using proper english and correct spelling), and made Kitty all tingly inside. :D :D On a serious note, what are you using for filler (as in putty)?

[mikevillena]

Hey y'all!!!!!
Wellll......shucks miss kitty....ahs be blushin all over...whel...ah do believe ahm gettin rhed all over!!!! Ah'll fix yer wagin lil' lady...(John Wayne impression) :D

Kitty - all kidding aside, you just gave me an inspiration! I happen to be looking at a film canister....guess what? The plastic lid has serrations that look like the teeth on a typical flywheel...and the diameter looks bout right!!! YES!!!:D The chain looks kind of funny because I didn't have smaller tubing to use. I'll play around with it some more. The Porsche engine is in 1/8th scale (I hope AirBoss is right ;) ) but the timing chain is a little off (too big). You might want to snag some of that chain that you're refering to; might come in handy for the 1/4 scale Porsche California Speedster that you'll be building (after you get your reference pictures of course) ;) .

Piggy - Wat propel spelin u talk in bout????? :D I use some cheapo Bondo Glazing and Spot Putty that I bought at Wal-Mart. (don't get any of this stuff on lexan!!) I used to have some "Dr. MicroTools" putty (@ eight bucks a tube and well worth it) but ah, those were the days of champaigne wishes and caviar dreams (apologies to Robin Leach). Sigh....I now get by on Ramen Noodles and ...er...more ramen noodles....sad....

Hey AirBoss,

THAT'S RIGHT.........WE BAD!!! (Richard Pryor "Stir Crazy") :cool: :cool:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench042.jpg
I got "bored"

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench043.jpg
The connecting rod is a little beefy and out of scale, but I didn't want it to break should you miss a shift...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench046.jpg
Capping off the piston. I glued the short lenght of tubing (piston) to a piece of .040 thk. scrap. After the glue joint hardened, I trimmed off the excess scrap and sanded the crown to shape. The other lenght of tubing is the cylinder "wet" liner that I bored and polished. Because I didn't have the proper diameter tubing on hand, our piston is undersized so the engine will be around 2.5 liters (sorry). :o

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench047.jpg
one down, five to go. Not to mention the rest of the crankcase half, the other crankcase half, the cylinders, the heads.......

See ya!

[RealJDMman]

that is going to be really cool when your done,

i await the final product with baited breath.

[AirBoston]

Ya know, that does look a little small. Maybe the car is more like 1/6 scale. Mike can you start over?



J/K, looks great and less filling.

[Mobil1]

Yum.

When you're done with the engine you should think about making a mold off it and reproducing them. If the pattern is done, the hard part is finished.

BTW: How long before you drop a V8 in there? And wheres the RUST!?!?!

[mikevillena]

HARRRUMPHHH!!!!! SIR!!! You obviously need an oil change because you have confused this superb Porsche 935/77 with AirBoston's 914 ( ;) ).......RUST?????!!!!!! WELL!.....I've never been so insulted in all my life.....
And why would I ever think of desecrating such a fine automobile by putting a nasty ol' cast iron Ahmerkun V-8? Old Ferdinand would be rolling in his grave!!!!!!!
I think I'll just walk away from this preposterous conversa....OW!!!! HEY, WHO PUT THIS PIECE OF sh*t FIAT X1/9 here????!!!! Geez...I hope that last tetanus shot is still good.... :D

[MT2 owns you]

wow...that work is amazng...thats all there is to it. and mobil1, you have your facts wrong, german cars dont rust! (i got pics to prove it:my dads jetta). and thats a NICE model porsche, although i prefer 930's, 933's, and the ones around 2003, i think they were 996's, not sure. nice work mike!

[Mobil1]

Hmm, I could have some fun with this, but I wont. Last time I tried I got flamed pretty bad.

I know airboston from a 914 forum, so im jus giving him some crap ;)

[MT2 owns you]

good boy, acceptance is the first step to realizing porsches > all :D :p

[Mobil1]

Some people dont get the inside jokes between 914 owners (v8 conversions, RUST). BTW, german cars rust like any other car. Dont be fooled by a galvanized body.

[MT2 owns you]

well i guess that would explain it since i just remembered what a 914 is...i remember having to look it up on ebay/google/autotrader to find out what it is and how much. and i remember one guy who was selling his said it had some rust..btw, you may be right, but i tell ya, our datsun rusts WAAAAYYY more than my dads jetta...datsun-redone once, needs to be redone again. dads jetta-still goin strong

[mikevillena]

Err....excuse me gentlemen, I hate to shoot holes (hehehe) in your arguments but nothing but nothing rusts like a Fiat......Although mine is long, long gone (by way of the boneyard)...I am still (in a sick Pavlovian way) compelled to go the hardware store and buy gallons of Naval Jelly and lots of 80 grit sandpaper every spring..... I also love Datsuns. Hey, how come nobody does Porsche 914 and Datsun 510 bodyshells in 1/10th scale? Those would be bitchin' bodies for driftin.....shame. BTW...If any admin or mods are reading this..how about a sticky thread on "Bodyshells we'd love to see and buy" I'm sure the manufacturers would listen the the thousands of forum members with 30 bucks burning a hole in their pockets. Don't you agree?

[AirBoston]

Gee, I missed all the fun!

The 914 is a very unique sports car and in Porsche circles quite unloved. That's actually a blessing as there are some very creative souls out there building soem great cars using the 914 as a starting point. Small block V8s are quite common. Rotary, electric, Subaru, various Porsche and many other power plants are being put into these little cars.

Sorry for the intermission, now back to the program.

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
Getting sidetracked is fun sometimes... Anyway, back to the 935.
AirBoss - I messed up on the pistons...I forgot to groove them for the rings. Unless we like 0 compression (I've had a few cylinders like that in my time), I'll build new ones. I simply did this side project so that I can figure out how to do pistons. I thought it best since I had to decide whether to incorporate a working crankshaft and thus have journals on the crankcase halves. I'll be ordering more tubing. Regards to all. :D
Mike Villena

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench049.jpg

Back to the workbench.

Psst...AirBoss, you forgot the other "orphan"....the 928!

[NotWalkinBlind]

I'm not quite gettin' why you're makin' the internals... is this gonna be a blown engine?
:D
No, seriously... why?

[mikevillena]

Hey Notwalkin'
It sure looks like a blown engine doesn't it. :D To be honest, I've never scratchbuilt a hyper-detailed large scale engine before, let alone one with working (sort of) internals. I just felt it to be a good challenge for me. I just hope the rest of the gang is having as much fun watching as I have in trying to build it. I"m over my head in some areas but that is part of the learning experience for me.

PS. Besides, I'd love to see the knowing grin on AirBoston's face when he plunks this badass 935 down on the concourse tarmac. The judges can't see the internals, but we ALL know it's there ;)

[Silent Scope]

I hope this wasnt mentioned before.. what matrial are you working with?

[mikevillena]

I hope this wasnt mentioned before.. what matrial are you working with?
Hey Silent Scope,
For the engine, I'm using Evergreen plastic strips, tubing and rod. I'm not sure what AirBoss is using for the chassis.

[mikevillena]

Some more progress:
I started to build up the rest of the left crankcase half. The sequence of photos show how I built up the casting around the timing chain port.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench051.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench055.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench056.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/bench058.jpg

As with much of the crankcase, I used .040 and .060 thk strips to build up areas.

[vanilla gorilla]

why dont you make some of the pieces of the engine detachable so that the internals can be revealed to the judges?

[paperclipracer]

so this is just a model not a rc?

[NotWalkinBlind]

It's both... go check out page one.

[kitty]

Dang, I miss a few days and it's okay on other forums, but not for this one. I reckon I need to start logging on RCZ once a day for this forum so I can keep up with the various builds.

I like vanilla gorilla's suggestion. What about making it one of those cutaway engines like they do during non-commercial TV breaks for NASCAR races, like where the guy shows what does what in an engine, etc?

More people need to see this kind of work, especially concourse judges. Not only would it be great to receive the notoriety, but you could very well raise the bar much higher for the events. =)

[mikevillena]

Kitty - Again, you flatter too much. Although I'll try to build the valve and timing chain covers removable for AirBoss. He might get some play out of it. ;)

PS. Don't tell me that we'll have to scratchbuild you a new computer too???? :p

[mikevillena]

A word of advice on using reference photos..camera angles and distortions can be decieving:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench059.jpg
I had to trash the old timing chain port and start over. :rolleyes: Because I couldn't find any dimensions from the crankcase centerline to the machined surface of the timing chain port, I got lazy and simply "eyeballed" it. When I calculated some rough dimensions from the 1/20th scale parts, I was off by .100 in. Ooops :(

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench063.jpg
To help in laying out the crankshaft journals on the crankcase, I have to build the crankshaft. I laid out the blanks and drilled and reamed the two holes, one on the crankshaft centerline and the other offset for the connecting rod. Offset = 1/2 stroke lenght. REV. "B" on the connecting rod. :rolleyes:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench064.jpg
I used my square to line things up before gluing.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench065.jpg
One side done. After I do the other side, I'll assemble the con and piston and lay everything out on the crankcase to help locate the journals.

[mook]

mikevillena

"I messed up on the pistons...I forgot to groove them for the rings"


Surely you cant see the rings when the pistons are in the block?


ps nice work!

[AirBoston]

Hey Mike!!

That cut-a-way idea might be cool. Think about doing that on the passanger side (hint hint).

I can take some pics of my engine if you need. Let me know what angles would help. Shoot, I even have some spare chain covers that I was going to turn into a clock, but could send them your way.

I can't get to the local(ish) 935, can't find the owner so we're on out own.

PS: looks like you're loosing a bit of blood in some of these pics. Be careful with those Xactos.

[mikevillena]

HEY AIRBOSS!!!!!!
Waiiiitttt a minute....I only saw the driver's seat...what "passenger side"? What you talkin' bout???? Unless you plan on stuffing the race queen in there with a figure of you holding the checkered flag for the victory/cool down lap :D
I remember seeing a Bugeye carrying the whole pit crew and the race queen at Blackhawk a long, long time ago. Talk about negative camber and bump stops!!!!

It's alright bro, you can hold on to your timing chain cover as I can lift the features and dims from the 1/20th scale engine. The "timing cover clock" sounds interesting. Perhaps I should have made folk art out of the P.O.S. Fiat and the Renault(s) for the tourists wandering around here :)

BTW - Thank you for your kind concern, but that's Pactra Racing red. I bleed Tenax-7R because my tax preparer (I owe how much!!?!?!?!?) already got to me this year. ;)

[mikevillena]

Hey Gang,
Made a little progress on the crank. The tricky part was lining everything up so that it actually worked and the piston travels at 90 degrees to the crankshaft CL.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench061.jpg

AirBoss - Got a question. What is the firing order on the flat six? I've long forgotten such important stuff.... :( I've provided a sketch to help orient things. The no. 1 piston might be marked incorrectly per Porsche norms. :o
Thanks. Mike V.

[mikevillena]

mikevillena

"I messed up on the pistons...I forgot to groove them for the rings"


Surely you cant see the rings when the pistons are in the block?


ps nice work!

Hey Mook,
thanks for the compliments. Yeah, you wouldn't see the rings, but it would be a real challenge to try and groove the pistons. I think I've solved that problem but I can't build the new pistons until I get some more tubing. I did manage to make piston rings :D
Mike V.

[mikevillena]

A little more progress on the crankcase. I was finally able to decicpher the complex structures around the timing chain port and the auxillary drive end. I'm still waiting for the large shipment of Evergreen and a timing sequence so that I can work out the rest of the crankshaft.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench066.jpg

[AirBoston]

Firing Order: 1-6-2-4-3-5.

[AirBoston]

picture - reverse the direction arrow. My engine is backwards from the 911/390 series.

[Mobil1]

1-4-3-2

oh wait, this is a real porsche.. nevermind ;)

[AirBoston]

Yes, this is a real Porsche and not some volkwagen porsche wanna be. :D
Of Course I don't really believe that. I still long for a 356A coupe. Those had more VW parts than any 914 IIRC.

[mikevillena]

picture - reverse the direction arrow. My engine is backwards from the 911/390 series.

Hey AirBoss,
Of course!!!! Duh, I was wondering about that...but then I remembered that you have a mid-engined car. BTW..have you eaten any Fiat x1/9's, Pontiac Fiero's or Toyota MR2's for lunch lately??? ;)

[kitty]

Mike - Flattery, schmattery. When I compliment your work, I say exactly how I feel. I love detailed stuff. I thought a cutaway engine would be cool so that the judges can see all the hard work done on the internal bits.

You're right about my computer. I've been trying to piece together a slightly better one from other parts that guy sent me. I swear, every motherboard he ever sent me must have been one that was returned by a customer. I haven't done any work for him in well over a year now, yet he still keeps piddling around with building the other computer that he owes me. I did manage to get my old mule going again with a different video card, at least.

Re: camera angles.. Distortion is one thing I see far more (and far too) often with digital images.

Mook - No one else may ever see the piston grooves, but Mike will as he makes them. You'll learn more about his work if you get addicted to his threads like I have and you'll see that no detail goes unnoticed by him. In this thread alone, he's even concerned about the timing order of the crank and position of the pistons. Talk about dedication!

[hongbits]

outstanding! thankyou for shareing your build and please keep the pics coming. you attention to detail is one of the best i have seen in my limited rc life. congrats again.


hb..

[minijosh]

I'm a 935 guy myself but I have the original Tamiya 935 that I'm building to be a showcar.

[stewart_fan]

I told a freind about what you are doing and he found this link that might help you for inspiration. http://www.fineartmodels.com/e/gallery/scerri/

Keep up the outstanding work you are a more patient man than me

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
On behalf of myself and AirBoston, we thank you for the interest and the kind words on this really fun build. :D
I was finally able to sort out the slight problem with photobucket; I had to upgrade to premium.
I finally got my shipment from Tower and my new TT-01! :D :D :D I won't put this baby together just yet, as I'd rather wait until I get caught up with a ton of work :( .
I managed a little bit more progress on the left crankcase half.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/discbrakes024.jpg
Sorry about the blurry image as I can't get the auto-focus to focus on what I want..

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench069.jpg
After I fitted and glued the journals, I sanded the crankcase half perfectly flat as it has to mate with the right half, thus trapping the crankshaft. I taped a sheet of 320 grit onto a large and inexpensive (Wal-Mart)tempered glass cutting board (smooth side up) and used plenty of soapy water and light circular motions to level the mating face without losing too much material.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench067.jpg
I then bored out and ground the journal faces to accept the crankshaft. The cross-drilled and ventilated brake disc is for a write-up that I'll be posting soon.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench070.jpg
GROOVY BABY!!!! :D I was finally able to solve the challenge of grooving the piston to accept 2 compression and 2 oil control rings. (AirBoss..please feel free to correct me as I'm not very familiar with Porsche engines). More pictures to follow...I'll sign off and edit down the pic size at photobucket. BRB

[mikevillena]

Sanding the cut sections of tubing down to paper thin rings was a little challenging but not impossible. I made good use of the taped sandpaper.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench071.jpg

Psst..AirBoss, can I borrow your ring compression tool? ;)

[mikevillena]

I told a freind about what you are doing and he found this link that might help you for inspiration. http://www.fineartmodels.com/e/gallery/scerri/

Keep up the outstanding work you are a more patient man than me

Thanks stewart_fan. I'm guessing that you are a big fan of Sir Jackie? "Mr. Smooth" is one of my all time favorite drivers :D BTW, I've made the pilgrimage to that site that you've kindly provided before in another thread, although it is nice to see that incredible masterpiece again. Makes me wish I had the tools and equipement to work with metal. Oh and most of all, detail drawings of all the parts.

Kitty - What can I say except "thanks"...I hope you're enjoying this build :D

Hongbits and Minijosh - Thanks guys...I just hope that I'll get some time to get to the rest of the engine!!!!!! ;) BTW..I have the two Tamiya 1/20th 935 kits...Kremer Vailant and the Martini sponsored factory car. I used to have the 935/2 "Baby" 1/24th by ESCI, the early 935 silver "Martini", the Tamiya 1/12th scale 934 and about 12 other Porsche kits...sigh :(

[NotWalkinBlind]

Used to? What happened? Please don't say your dog ate 'em.

[mikevillena]

NWB,
No, the dog didn't eat them...I had stupidly sold several closetfuls of kits.......I once had a first issue Tamiya 1/12th scale Lotus F-1 (Gold Leaf sponsored and with wings) and a Honda F-1..both had the original electric motors with gearboxes that get stuffed into the dummy engine and gearbox!!!!!!!! I'm going to shoot myself..arrrghhhh!!!! :(

[mikevillena]

I've begun work on the right crankcase half. I've been able to successfully curve .040 thk. plastic and have it hold it's shape.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench075.jpg

[Mobil1]

Yes, this is a real Porsche and not some volkwagen porsche wanna be. :D
Of Course I don't really believe that. I still long for a 356A coupe. Those had more VW parts than any 914 IIRC.

Actually not. The 356 had a porsche bred motor (ive got one in my 912). It actually shared very few (if any?) parts with a VW. Small electrical stuff is interchangable, but brakes, suspension, engine, trans, and everything are all different on the 356 and the bug.

[Mobil1]

Mike, that engine looks excellent. The 935 had air cooled pistons, right? Any idea how you're going to make the cooling fins on the pistons? That seems like its not going to be fun.

[NotWalkinBlind]

Oh, ye of little faith. Heh heh.
;)
Dude, he probably already knows how he's gonna make the sparkplugs and the inside of the distributor.

Then, there's the transaxle. We're gonna be here til Thanksgiving, at least.... stay tuned... it'll be a fun ride, I promise you. :)

There'll be shift linkage... there'll be toggle switches and working guages on the dash... you just wait.
:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek:

[strada001]

wow...
man you really impressed me...
nice job!!!

I didn't know someone could do such "little" things....
very impressive!!!
congratulations!

[microrcdude]

please tell me that Racecar Engineering magazine has a website! Gosh i want a subscription!

[Silent Night]

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/

I'm thinking about subscribing..

[mikevillena]

Mike, that engine looks excellent. The 935 had air cooled pistons, right? Any idea how you're going to make the cooling fins on the pistons? That seems like its not going to be fun.

Hey Mobil 1,
Thanks man. Yep..on this particular engine (for the 935/77 near as I can tell) both the cylinders and the head are air-cooled. I know that it sounds tricky, but I think I've got it figured out. I'm going to take a stack of pre-cut pieces of .015 thk. Evergreen and I'll put a tiny spot of Tenax at each corner (just enough to hold the stack together). Then, I'll lay out the bore for the cylinders and simply grind out the bore. After that, I'll trim the corners which should free the individual "fins" and then, it'll simply be a matter of spacing and gluing the fins in place. I hope it works.

[mikevillena]

Oh, ye of little faith. Heh heh.
;)
Dude, he probably already knows how he's gonna make the sparkplugs and the inside of the distributor.

Then, there's the transaxle. We're gonna be here til Thanksgiving, at least.... stay tuned... it'll be a fun ride, I promise you. :)

There'll be shift linkage... there'll be toggle switches and working guages on the dash... you just wait.
:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek:
Hey Not Walkin!!!
Thanks for your vote of confidence (gulp!) Err...for the sparkplugs...I haven't gotten that far yet. But this baby will have them (single spark pre cylinder as opppsed to duals). The gearbox/transaxle will be split so that AirBoss can slip it over and sandwhich the solid rear axle on the R/C chassis.
As for the rest of the car, you'll have to check with AirBoss as he is the lead builder and I don't know how extensive (read..."INSANE") his detail list is. Oh, and can I get stuffing to go with my turkey? Pretty please? :D

[mikevillena]

wow...
man you really impressed me...
nice job!!!

I didn't know someone could do such "little" things....
very impressive!!!
congratulations!
Thanks strada001. I never made it to Med school to become a surgeon so now I just do "plastic" surgery!!!! Anybody need a nose job? :D

[mikevillena]

Microdude and Silent Night
Hey guys, Racecar Engineering is a pretty good read if you're into the nuts and bolts behind full size racecars. Topics have included vehicle dynamics, crash testing and other esoteric technicalia. Although I don't subscribe (expensive), I do pick up an issue from time to time as reference. I'd rather subscribe to R/C CAR ACTION ;) .
(Psst....if any of the R/C CAR ACTION staffers are reading this......how about a job?)

[Silent Night]

Wow, I just saw the subscription price...Almost $100 for 1 year! Maybe you can get rcca to put this build in their magazine. That would be cool.

[mikevillena]

Wow, I just saw the subscription price...Almost $100 for 1 year! Maybe you can get rcca to put this build in their magazine. That would be cool.

Yep, the good folks (at Racecar Engineering) figure that if you can afford to play around with real racecars (i.e. work for a team or major manufacturer), you can afford the hefty subscription price. I guess that weeds out the typically under-funded r/c racer (who would rather spend the bucks on batteries..er nitro fuel and a subscription to RC CAR ACTION anyway(another shameless a** kiss to get a job..hint..hint) or rif-raf like me :D .

[Viperrgh2]

wow.. very very nice work! looks amazing!

[microrcdude]

man, im gone for a few days and it grows 2 pages on me. I REALLY need to check on more often.

[faan]

Brilliant work. Never seen anything like it.

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
Sorry...I've been on holiday for a few days and I returned to a "virus" problem with the computer. Will post more progress and pics soon!

[NotWalkinBlind]

...did y'all know the 917 was this small in comparison to the 962?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/NotWalkinBlind/PorschesOnBanking.jpg

[EvaderSTKid]

Thats like Lotus Elise size there...

[vanilla gorilla]

what about some updates?

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
Been pretty busy with other things so progress is slow. I've almost finished the right crankcase and I had an accident with the crankshaft so I decided to rebuild it altogether.
Here are pieces for the new crancshaft
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/Porsche%20930%20Engine/bench078.jpg

[EvaderSTKid]

What kind of accident happened? Slipped with the X Acto?

[MT2 owns you]

woow....impressive.

[ducati777]

...did y'all know the 917 was this small in comparison to the 962?


962 is another favorite of mine. When I was a kid, maybe 14ish I was living on my pop's boat, and our neighbor across the way was D'Angelo Canapa. His son, Bruce Canapa was a privateer porsche racer, and had a 962, 959, and 935.

I just about passed out the day D'Angelo said why don't we cruise down to my son's shop? Uhhhhh OKAY!!!! I got to sit the 962 and 935, but the 959 wasn't there that day. It was a dream come true, and I still remember the crazy honeycomb panels inside the 962, you had to be careful going over the doorsills because they were lightweight panels covering up all sorts of goodies. Mmmmm that day rocked.

That was 12 years ago, but at the time Canapa was building 18 wheeler race trucks. He claimed like 80% of Indy teams were using his trucks. They were beefed up Kenworth's with body kits, HP upgrades, actually all sorts of upgrades, but they were designed to haul butt to the next track. That was the allure, fast trucks for the race teams to get across country in a hurry.

[Piggy89373]

Mike, it's been over 2 weeks. We need our "Holy Crap!" fix. What's the latest?

[kitty]

Bump for the cause!

At least I didn't miss anything by Mike while I was offline for a few weeks, or at least I hope I didn't miss anything.

Hope everything is okay for you, Mike. We miss you!!

[mikevillena]

Hey gang,
I'm sorry about being away for a while. I'm taking a short sabbatical as I have taken on a large portrait commission (my first one). It's for one of the Directors at WIU and could lead to further portraiture work. While I love working on RC cars, I have to remind myself that it is still a hobby and that I still have to make rent somehow. However, I will continue to work on the 935 project whenever I have any spare time. If anyone has a specific question or need of what little I know about detailing and scratchbuilding, please feel free to e-mail me at michael_villena@netscape.com I'll be back soon.
Mike V

[streetracer]

So mike? What kinda fuel, is this thing gonna run on?

[streetracer]

:D :D :D :)

[Tyrael1986]

So mike? What kinda fuel, is this thing gonna run on?

by the looks of things compressed air would work nicely if thats possible? a regulator with a CO2 tank perhaps? dunno though. anyway this thread is AWSOME i cant belive the detail your putting into this. its just amazingly realistic so far.

[mikevillena]

by the looks of things compressed air would work nicely if thats possible? a regulator with a CO2 tank perhaps? dunno though. anyway this thread is AWSOME i cant belive the detail your putting into this. its just amazingly realistic so far.

Thanks Tyrael1986. I did initially think of C02 as the engine is made solely out of styrene plastic. I've also seen some miniature free-flight planes with tiny C02 engines. However, I won't be powering this engine as the timing chain that I've built is too fragile to see any stresses, even from a low pressure C02 source. :(

[AirBoston]

I'm out of time these days to do anything else. My end of the project is dead in the water. Mike has done a tremedous job on the engine.

Is anyone interested in buying the chassis and body for this (as seen at the start). Of course Mike gets first dibs.

[mikevillena]

I'm out of time these days to do anything else. My end of the project is dead in the water. Mike has done a tremedous job on the engine.

Is anyone interested in buying the chassis and body for this (as seen at the start). Of course Mike gets first dibs.

Wow Airboss, sorry that the 935's dead in the water. I'll pass on the chassis and body but I'll try to finish up the engine (eventually). I suppose this turned out to be a very ambitious project that required more time than we were both able to devote to it. Perhaps we can colloborate again in the future on a somewhat less ambitious build. See ya! :D

Mike V.

[AirBoston]

Ok Mike. I want that motor still!! Contact me when you get it done and we'll arrange something.

For now then, If some one want it, give me a shout. If not, I'll squirt some paint on the shell and ebay it.

[snakeyes17]

Wow Mike I would just like to congratulat you on the Alfa I think it was in the December '02 RCCA! It is amazing. I noticed it when looking through all my old mags. So is this project.