brushless motors have trinity unhappy!

[Traxxaskid]

With the Novak brushless system coming out soon and other brushless motors popping up all around, and trinity doesn't seem happy about brushless motors hopeful boom in popularity soon
This is what *Ernie (CEO of trinity)has to say about brushless motorsCreated Thursday,

*BTW this is a cut and paste off of Trinity tech talk*

April 19, 2001, 1:10 a.m. by TC3GTR, who wrote:

*Ernie (Friday, April 6, 2001, 12:10 p.m.
Brushless motors....no we have not. I really dont plan on winning too many speed runs this year so why would I need a brushless motor with a 3 turn motor? A lot of companies have been playing with these over the years..some with good results but I think if we are all talking about saving money....why would we need a $300 speedo/motor package? Most of the speedos now dont work at all....do you want to have your motor hooked up to that as well so if that is gone...so is your motor. I also dont buy the fact that you buy it once and thats it. If you buy a 8 turn and your friend buys an 8 turn...they are exactly the same speed. If you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you. Even if it were true....what is the end result. You have to buy another motor to go faster (since there is no TUNING in a brushless) or you just both run the same exact speed lap after lap....BORING!* (from: Trinity Tech Talk)

Well look at that Trinity is scared of brushless motors. *Why do we need to spend $300 on a motor and speedo, well you spend that much on a brushed motor already--

top of the line ESC-$150
Trinity motor-$55
------------------
Total=$205

well not $300 but after you get you have comm cutting to do, brush replacements, after a while that motor will wear out another $55.
And you would all race aournd the track at the same speed...hmmmmmm....I though driving skill made up how fast you go^^spec class^^motors are all the same speeds but do all the cars go the same speed no!

But Novak will release its brushless system and trinity, Orion, Peak.........will lose some cash but it will take a long time for brushed motors to go away. The bottom line is that trinity just cant handle them releasing a motor that will essenially not require almost any cash to keep running since then they'll lose money.

[Distro]

Brushless motors = less maintanence. Also i see no reason for a brushless motor and speed control combo to be 300 dollars but then again novak is alittle $$. They could do it for 200 easy.

[WhoKnowsWho]

I'm actually hesitant to purchase new motors or speed controls because of the prospect of the brushless motors from Novak. Less maintance, more run time, more power, higher revs, all of it sounds too good to be true, but of course, the price will be the final decision maker. Hopefully they do it for under $200, and sell the motors seperately for under $75. If not, I may just figure out a way to put a Picco in all of my cars!

[Aussie_Man]

As long as there will be NO spec racing class for these motors I think everyone will be happier. If you dont have to do any maintenence on your cars whats the point in driving them when alot of people I see dont know anything on them already.

[The_Ne-Go-She-Ate-r]

What did i say wrong?

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: The_Ne-Go-She-Ate-r ]

[SteveP]

If anyone wants to discuss the merits of brushless motors and what you think they might mean to our market, that's ok. But this thread will be closed if the personal attacks, politics and rhetoric continue. There are other boards if you want to engage in this type of behavior.

[gacjr0]

This is not a personal attck, politics, or rhetoric. It is straight, objective observation. I see that anything brushless gets deleted ASAP on TTT. I see that people who mention brushless or an article in RCCA showing unfavorable dyno results gets deleted and their account is deleted. I see Ernie giving poor arguements against brushless. On to the brushless talk...

How could "8-turn" racing be boring?
How could doing several runs a day in "8-turn" racing without having to cut the comm and put in new brushes all the time be boring? So what if its a "black box" that racers cain't tune or fix? Most of our stuff is already a "black box". Do you open up your peak charger if it breaks (or your reciever,speed control,transmitter)? Many racers don't know how to tune their motors anyway. If brushless delivers then racers and bashers will spend less time wrenching and more time driving (faster?).

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: gacjr0 ]

[Grizzbob]

Well, I can't say I completely agree with Ernie, I do see his point. I for one take a lot of pleasure in tuning a motor myself(that's why I bought a dyno) & getting that little bit extra out of it(sometimes before anyone else in my area does), it's very satisfying. With brushless motors that would all dissappear. Since they're AC motors, you can't even dyno test one(with our current dynos), & then if a speed control has a problem, how much will it cost to get a new one, or fix the old one?(I know Novak's service is excellent, but it's not neccessarily cheap). Imagine how much it'll cost to have spares, as many of us do for brushed motors & electronics. I'm not saying brushless is a bad idea, but I do think that we don't need it in racing..... :)

[bobcedric]

I guess there are some that enjoy tearing down motors and tweaking them for performance. I am not one of them however.

I could never get over the level of maintenance it takes to keep a 8 turn motor at peak performance. I use fine sandpaper to clean my comm and use the brushes till they are burnt stubs. If I see a high level of performance for only a small bit extra with no maintenance, I'll snap it up.

Any other part that needed that level of care would have been scrapped by now if companies were looking to sell true performance and quality to their customers.

I guess its better for them for us to spend a few $$$ each week on top of high prices for the top modifieds. :rolleyes:

[prime]

If you refuse to meet your customer's demands, you won't survive. Racers want their motors to last longer, be more efficient, cost less and ultimately make their car go faster. If brushless motors can deliver this then so be it. The customers WILL vote with their pocket books and if you don't have what they want then the heard gets thinned.

No one said you couldn't use brushless anymore. You CAN use your brushed motor while your competitors use brushless. It's OK to continue tuning the brushed motor in search of better performance and no one's going to take that away. However, you might find that your competitors spent more time practicing to drive better instead of having to tune their motors. I think that's part of the brushless appeal.

Since this is all just for fun, it doesn't matter if you win or loose races anyway. Just make sure you enjoy what you are doing. ;)

[jeepinator]

I have owned an Aveox motor for over 5 years now. It's been in my various kits, but primarily my custom built monster truck.
I have been downright rude to that motor. Never ever pay any attention to it. I beat the crap out of it, run it in sand, mud, dust, hot days, 3 runs in a row, and other things your not supposed to do to motors.
It keeps on chugging, stays extremely consistent over YEARS, and provides more power than you can imagine. My monster truck first had two 14 turn Reedy Sonic motors in it. It was quite fast, but had short run times (even with 2 packs in parallel). Then I got the Aveox brushless motor. No comparison. Easily 3 times more power, 15 minute run times (I am NOT kidding here), and no maintenance ever.
I payed over $300 back then, for the motor and controller. Considering how often I use it, how much I abuse it, and how little time I have spent working on it, this was a total bargain. Like someone else mentioned, your gonna pay like 200 for a standard combo anyway. So $100 extra lasted me 5 years.
The REAL reason Ernie so poorly debated against them is this very reason ... lower revenue from motor sales.
You can see my monster truck on Aveox's web site here (http://www.aveox.com/hobby.htm). Click on "photos" --> our friends planes" (hehe, my pics are the ONLY ones that are not planes).
Or go to my web site here (http://www.theshreves.com). Click on the RC link.

BTW, prime, you nailed it. It has nothing to do with Ernie's opinion, it has everything to do with our opinion.

[ 04-22-2001: Message edited by: jeepinator ]

[LosiMan3456]

They way I see this whole brushless motor thing, is how I saw Cell phones come on the market. Whent cell phones first came out they were a big hit. all the companies were making big bucks. Now everyone you see has one so know one else is going to buy one unless it breaks or so on. That is how I think brushless motors are going to be like. Everyone will have one and then other companies will lose money. I am only 12 and know I will not be able to afford a $300 motor and speedo. I am not saying Brushless motors are bad, I think they will be a big hit untill about a year after they come out. I would like to get one but will not be able to afford it! Thas just my 2 cents. :p

[XXXER]

I am an old fashioned guy, i like having different motors of different dyno #'s, it is a challenge to keep up with the guy that has the 'latest stuff' and tuning and so on. with brushless motors, it would be boring, you get a motor that you are unhappy with, then you need to go buy a new one, with brushed motors, you replace brushes, different springs, all sorts of fun stuff

[The_Ne-Go-She-Ate-r]

I dont know why my reply was deleted, i pretty much said what everyone else is.
I still agree with what one of the guys above said. I dont see how racing for a longer time, going faster, and not have to tune would be less fun. I dont think running on a 3 turn brushless can get boring. The whole thing with trinity is they dont like that there getting pulled out the spot light and are not supporting brushless becouse there not the first major company to make a line of brushless motors. They think if a racer goes threw Four 50$ d4's a year they will keep making money year after year off the same guy.With brushless, there basicaly is no Parts to were out. So there will be less motors bought. :D

[Nairb]

Steve, I don't get it. How could you think that? Brushless motors would be boring? That's bullcrap. First of all, you can't get a bad brushless motor. The factors to mess up brushed motors aren't there in brushless ones. They are too simple to be flawed in any way. Don't give me this, "then you need to go buy a new one" crap. If you want different performance from your motor, you tweak the settings on your ESC. The tuning is still there, it will just move from costly things on the motor to free adjustments on your ESC. You'll see...

[juan24]

Longer run times, more time to pratice and less time on the side line. I dont see any thing wrong with brushless motors. And dont you get faster with more track time instead of working on your motor.
And this thing about some companies losing money. I say so what, let them come up with some thing else to sale us. Its a free market and if you cant come up with a products that sell than your company shouldnt be around.

[Nairb]

Yeah, with less motor stuff for us to be tied down to buying every once in a while, all us crazy money-spenders will find other things to spend our money on, be it more hop ups, more eye candy, more batteries, more electronics, or more cars...the equivalent amount of money wasted on consumable motors will be spent in the R/C industry. In some cases, even more money will be spent because there won't be as much dread about maintaining your equipment after you run it, hence making it more fun and more likeable to some. I garuntee that this will be the case. Just you wait and see. Less money on multiple motors, brushes, springs, and lathes, but lots more on hop-ups and any other conceivable thing.

[Grant Tokumi]

jeepinator,

Did you have to do some major gearing up on your truck to accomodate for the Aveox brushless motor? I remember when the Aveox first came out on the rc car market, RC Car action did some testing, and if I remember correctly, they had to gear up significantly, to accomodate for the brushless motor. Something like the brushless motor had a lot more torque, but lower rpms as compared to brushed motors.

[illbreakit]

Myself, being an Industrial Electrician, I work with D.C. motors and 3 phase A.C. motors(larger versons of the brushless) The significant run time and less maintenance costs are the real plus of these motors. I can see the day when these motors will be a everyday occurence in rc. And why not? When the automobile came out people said it was bad, they couldn't "raise them" like there horses, they just drove em. They cost lots to buy,(just gota feed, shelter, and look after the health of horses). But if they just canned the idea of motorized carragies, then where would we be now :confused: We sure wouln't be talking about rc cars :eek: So what I am saying is nomater what one person feels, change is enevitable, sometimes for the good, sometimes not, but change will happen. Just be patient it will all work out. Those who want brushed motors, HAVE THEM. Those who want something else, thats ok too.
But thats just my opinion, I could be rong.

[Sprite@]

If you notice whenever a novak brushless motor thread goes up, its gone the next day. They are scared because they can't compete. If this new brushless system hits the shelves at anywhere near $200, then it will be a hit. No lathe to buy, no brushes, no oils, no motor spray, no modified motor, no maintenance. Also what ernie said, novak says that they are TUNABLE. I would like to see how successful these brushless motors are, they will have a lot more performance for a lot less cash and maintenance. My .02. :eek:

[LosiMan3456]

What a lot of people need to understand too is that Brushed motors are going to be around for a while! Brushless motors are going to have to be cheaper in order to take over the market. Like I said before, what about people that have little amounts of money to spend on RC. They like to keep it cheap and have fun. Whats gonna happen when everyone has a brushless motor but the lone guy down the street can't afford a brushless motor. I dont want to be seeing people getting out of the hobby because they can't afford it. I myself wonder why I spend so much each day at the hobby shop. I think things are getting a little too expensive. My $0.02 :eek:
:(

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: LosiMan3456 ]

[Administrator]

The above post from Sprite, with all due respect, is exactly what we would prefer not to have. It based purely on speculation and bias. Statements like "They are scared because they can't compete," and "they will have a lot more performance for a lot less cash and maintenance" are unfounded.
The future of coreless (brushless) motors is one filled with possibilities, but at present nobody knows ANYTHING about them. I would prefer everyone just wait until they become available before making such absolute statements about what they "WILL" bring to the market. Just take it easy and enjoy discussions about what you "THINK" the benefits of these new motors will be. When they become available and we all get a chance to run them, then we can come back here and offer our opinion based on fact.
As to whether or not you like Trinity, that's a separate issue. Suggesting you know any more about their position than exactly what they've stated is petty politics and has no place here. It does nothing to promote our great hobby and would turn off a newcomer to see this type of senseless bickering.

[ 04-23-2001: Message edited by: Administrator ]

[XXXER]

Why are you all excited to go faster? Don't you all remember back in novice class? SLOWER is FASTER? :D

[Nairb]

XXXER's got Ernie on the brain... How did he brainwash you so thoroughly?

[Nairb]

Faster is not the point. It's a great side effect...

[Mark98SS]

I am personally disturbed by the "Administrator's" response to Sprite's post. That post does not contain improper language, or IMO any kind of personal attack against anyone. Sprite voices opinions that I am sure is shared by many. I am dissapointed that this board doesn't allow at least some controversial thoughts to be posted.

[juan24]

Going fast isnt the only thing that brushless motor have might offer. Less maintance, longer run times are other possibilties. And even if they do go faster, just dont pull the trigger all the way.

[jeepinator]

jeepinator,
Did you have to do some major gearing up on your truck to accomodate for the Aveox brushless motor? I remember when the Aveox first came out on the rc car market, RC Car action did some testing, and if I remember correctly, they had to gear up significantly, to accomodate for the brushless motor. Something like the brushless motor had a lot more torque, but lower rpms as compared to brushed motors.


Yes, I had to gear up like crazy !
For one, the tranny is a XX *buggy* tranny. Considering the huge size of the tires, this is significant. I also used a small spur/large pinion combo.
I once put the Aveox in my B3, just for the heck of it. The gearing that finally worked well was 35/72 (pinion/spur) :eek:
The hobby shop was like you want WHAT !? Heheh, they did not believe me that I needed anything that tall.
One thing I forgot to metion earlier is that there are still issues with driveability. It is much, much harder to control the speed of a brushless motor. If I were to venture a guess, I would say that this is reason noone has a brushless motor/controller combo out made for RC cars. It is not just a matter of varying the on/off ratio (of the voltage applied to the motor), like brushed motors. You actually have to control the magnetic fields just right to have the magnet "pull" towards the coil. Sheesh, hard to explain.
Brushles motor have been out for a long, long time in the airplane world. This is probably because there is much less requirement for precision. There is also no need for a braking function (the worst part of my Aveox set up is the braking control).
Novak is probably committing most of their resources on getting the controllability into brushless designs. And this is probably accounting for most of the delay.

Originally posted by Mark98SS:

I am personally disturbed by the "Administrator's" response to Sprite's post. That post does not contain improper language, or IMO any kind of personal attack against anyone. Sprite voices opinions that I am sure is shared by many. I am dissapointed that this board doesn't allow at least some controversial thoughts to be posted.


While conjecture and opinion are legal, etc. they do not benefit a construtive discussion. This, I believe is the main point "Administrator" was trying to make. Sprite@'s post was inflamatory and did not add any unique perspective. Administrators have opinions, just like Sprite@, and it was given. The post still exists, so there is really nothing to complain about, no ?

Cheers !

[old phart]

I love the idea of the brushless motors. I am an old nitro guy. Just got my first electric 2 months ago, and now have 3 of them. They are neat, but the motor maintenance is a pain. I am not a racer. I would guess that 90% or more of all r/c hobbyists are not racers, just have r/c for fun. I could care less what the "factory teams" and drivers are doing. I want good, everyday products for FUN!

I also like to spend money wisely. I can go buy the new Modeltech BL systems right now for every r/c vehicle I have if I wanted to. But in my opinion, they are priced to high and that is due to many factors. I also don't need to be the first one to have a new product out on the market. I have learned great patience over the years. I won't throw money at something just to be "first".
I like to let the bugs get worked out before hand, and let the market stabilize before I toss my money into the arena.

I am waiting for Novak to come out with theirs, so that there is a little rivalry going and that will help the market determine what the best product is, and what the pricing should be, based on volume of sales.

Also, to date, no one who is marketing the BL system has actually published a video of them running one. A lot of talk has been going around, but no one here has actually seen one run to the best of my knowledge. The proof is still yet to be evidenced.

Now, if BL is everything it's claimed to be, all my electric models will become BL in the future. ;)

[NitroJunky]

im an all nitro guy i do know electric though i did slot cars for a few years so i know how it is to rebuild the motors after every race its a pain!! and some people dont have the talent i was tought by one of the guys at our local slot car track he showed me every thing he knew to build a great motor i tried but notinh was as fast as his he was just good at building motors. i think it will make a great rc class with these brush less motors because all the skill will be based on the suspension and the driver of the car every one will have = power. i think brushless is a HUGE step in rc i know they have been for along time i know aveox first made them for rc gliders then cars. i rember rcca did a article on the fastest rc cars they all have aveox motors if i can rember i have the article some where. electric has had mor advance in it then i think nitro you guys got 3000 Mah packs for longer runs and now brushless motors. it would be great if nitro had such an equvilant in progress but there really havent been that many advance to 2 cycle engines theres only so much u can do to gget power. some of this might no make sense i just though id add my .02 cents. it would be great if it was a big rc conspiercy.

[Grant Tokumi]

Thanks for the insights jeepinator. Seems like the brushless hype/marketing is getting people a bit TOO excited to me. I'm sure Novak appreciates it though. Hopefully they deliver a product that lives up to its expectations. So controlability and braking might be an issue then. I didn't think about that. Good point.

I was asking in an attempt to find any "negative" aspects of brushless. It started to seem like this thread was making brushless motors god's gift to r/c :). Wanted to uncover some of the possible drawbacks before people empty their life savings into this investment. I'm glad you picked up on my intentions and brought up those points on controlability, braking, as well as confirming my memory on having to change gearing as well. We'll see if Novak addresses these "possible" concerns with their release.

The saying I like to follow in everyday life is "everything has its drawbacks". Even god's gift to R/C.

[Mark98SS]

Jeepinator, your point about the Sprite's post still being on the board & uncensored is quite valid.

At the risk of sounding inflammatory myself; when I see things like Admins. response to Sprite's post I can't help but think about buisness things like advertising dollars & such. I'm sure that's not the case here but those sort of things tend to cross my mind at times.

The fact that this board is well controlled as far as flame wars & improper language is a good thing especially because of the high number of young people here but I just worry that it can go too far. At a race guys talk about alot of things besides R/C so I wonder why it can't be that way on this board?

[illbreakit]

Incase anyone wants to know the main principles behind the brushless motors I'll try to explain.
The motors that we use now are strictly DC motors. The brushless motors are a 3 phase AC motor, the same kind used in industrial plants, only smaller. The reason for the controller is to invert(create) AC power from our DC batteries. Normaly, the AC current in our homes is fixed at a frequency of 60 Hertz. With the fixed frequency, the speed of an AC motor will remain constant. In order to vary the speed, we need to vary the frequency, that is the job of the controller. Instead of turning on/off/on, like a ESC, the coltroller has to vary the voltage from 0 to full voltage, then to 0 then do it all over again with the reverse polarity, plus it has to do it within varying timed to get the varying speed. The reason we use AC motors is that they are more efficient than their DC counterparts, plus they cost way less to produce and other than bearings, no maintenance :D The controllers, on the other hand, is where the cost comes in. But the flipside is, the controllers, if properly cared for, will last allmost forever, and the motors as well.
I hope this helps someone understand the principles of these motors. I feel they will be a great boost to our hobby, I went to gas to get longer run times(more practice) but when these motors come out, I just might have to get another electric. Whatever feelings you may have, just remember why you got into this hobby in the first place TO HAVE FUN :D ;) :) :cool:

[DerekB]

Mark, I was slightly confussed by your statement. This post is still alive isn't it. We are just trying to state that everything on this thread is speculation until there is an actual working product. Reserve all the "IT WILL" and factual statements until then. We are all very anxious to see a working model.

Derek :cool:

[Sprite@]

Thanks for the support Mark. I have seen this happen to many people trying to find out information about brushless motors on the trinity board, and thus I think it is a general feeling of everyone of why they are deleting the posts instead of just letting people discuss the brushless motor technology. Sorry administrator, I will try to base my next thoughts on products that are already tested.

[Administrator]

Sprite - were not the "thought police." All we ask is that everyone avoid presenting anything as fact about products that aren't even available. If you "think" they "could" be a good thing for RC, that's great; we do as well.

[Mark98SS]

Derek, I'm just a "free speech" fanatic. You'r right, the post is still alive & that's to you'r credit. :)

[ILv2Xlr8]

FYI, I looked up prices on Modeltech (www.modeltech.co.uk) brushless motors.
Pro-Race forward and proportional brakes, Brushless Motor Controller: £160.00
Pro-Spec Torque IN-DOOR Kv. 4,500 rpm/volt 84% - 89% Eff: £139.00
UK £ Total: £299.00
Rate: 0.88
US $ Total: $339.75

[spider]

yup interesting topic indeed. novak just announced that they cannot make the jan 2002 announcement date. instead they're planning to release it june 2002. i'll be waiting for reviews, and for time to "harden" bl motor technology. in my experience, version 1.0 of anything will be closely followed by version 1.1. but companies try not to do this. so maybe that's why novak is taking their time. its always better to come up with a good, usable product than a faulty one.

still, the brushed motors will not go away anytime soon. they will stay a while.

it would be interesting to see brushed and brushless motors head to head though....

[HoppedRustler]

I just recently got into RC and have already started upgrading motors, etc. I think that if brushless motors offer more power with less maintenance then they will be a great step ahead for people like myself who are not experienced enough to tune and maintain a highly modified motor. I think that there will still be a market for stock or lower modified motors even if brushless motors do take hold because of the pricing issue. Regardless of what happens down the road, these motor manufacturers will adapt to the industry and provide innovations and newer "bigger better" products to make our cars go faster. I think any innovation is a good one because it causes competition in the industry which causes more innovation...my thoughts.
-Jesse

[Usagi]

I really am happy that novak fiannly started to produce brushless motor. Being able to run a little longer with this system does make it worth the money.

[Throtl Hapie]

It's like a real car. If you could have an engine that requires almost no maintanence, gets amazing fuel efficiency, makes more power, why would you want to stick with an old engine? You have more fun tuning it? Bologna! Brushless all the way.:D

[Grant Tokumi]

Yeah! This thread is back in business and reiterates the issues with brushless.

Most people I've read had Throtl Hapie's thought process. And I agree with his thoughts too. Screw tuning if the performance is increased that much.

But the part lots of people don't hear much about (or care about)is jeep's points regarding control and braking power. Using Throtl's real car example: You could have all the power and efficiency in the world, but I would say "no way" to this engine if I had to deal with a huge fear of sudden acceleration when I'm trying to parallel park my car between a Jaguar and a Ferrari. Or as relating to Rc cars: I would say "no way" to this engine if I had to deal with a huge fear of sudden acceleration when I'm trying to squeeze a pass between 2 brushed motor buggies.

If Novak can produce the benefits of brushless while maintaining control and braking characteristics of brushed motors, then I think it will make Novak very rich.

[Throtl Hapie]

That's why you have to be a good driver ;) If you own a McLaren F1, you better learn to control it and have a light foot or you'll be in trouble... With an RC, you have to practice. But with the ESC, you should be able to program it to gradually increase power in small increments instead of massive surges.

Power is nothing without control.

[InspGadgt]

Phart made a good point about 90% of the hobbiests being just that...hobbiests...not racers. So for the Hobbiest who can afford a $200+ brushless system that's great for them. Less mantenance, longer life, yay!

Now for the 10% of you (and me) who are racers...there's 1 point no one has mentioned yet. This may all be a moot point because...the sanctioning bodies currently do not allow for brushless motors in their classes. And may decide to continue that police once the Novak system comes out.

[InspGadgt]

Throt...F1 uses traction control systems to help keep their power under control.

Also there are times when the throttle just cannot be controlled without help. Very loose dirt tracks are one place. Dusty asphalt...ect ect.

[Throtl Hapie]

That's why the ESC will become a major player. You tweak it instead.

[HaCo]

Maybe u guys should check this out:
http://www.gm-racing.com/englisch/produkte/elektromotoren/brushless_evo1/brushless_1.htm
http://www.gm-racing.com/englisch/produkte/elektromotoren/brushless_evo1/brushless_2.htm


They have an ESC too for the motor, but the site protects himself to be right-clicked...
Just go and check out www.gm-racing.com
Products => Motors => Brushless EVO 1
and
Products => ESC Speedo => Speed Commander

Greetz from Germany
HaCo

[MrShop]

i really can't see the downside...
as it is a racing esc/motor already cost close to 300$
so why not use these?
Plus brushless motors are not new they have been around for a long time, used in various places including full size cars and trains.
So these are a proven reliable source for power.

[spider]

haco: do you know the pricing for these things? i mean for both motor and speed control?

[MrShop]

i am guessing you are talking about the brushless ones, Novak has stated that it will go for around 300 for both the motor and the speed control. Remember for brushless ones i believe you need different speed controls for different turns, at least that is how it is right now.

[Usagi]

Novak has pushed their release date back to JUNE of 2002
Well at least the quility will be great. I wait ! No problem waiting for me :)

[HaCo]

MrShop: on the site of Gm_Racing they don't mention anything about it...
Spider: I'll send a mail to ask them...

[outsider]

I just got the GameCube so this is great news. By the time Novak does release it's BL system, I'll have enough money saved up to purchase it to replace my P2K in my buggy... I wish TeamOrion was investigating BL.. i love their motors.

[spider]

HaCo: thanks! appreciate it. 8)

[Usagi]

Hum? I think Team Orion is already doing its R&D on the brushless system. :o

[MrShop]

on the site of Gm_Racing they don't mention anything about it...


I'm talking about the existing airplane oriented ones that have been around for a while, i might be wrong about the speedo though that may be the reason it is taking longer than expected to release it.

[HaCo]

Ok, here are the pricings of the GM BL Motors:
With speedo 749,-- DM = 343 $
Without speedo 300,-- = 137 $

But that is the pricelist of he manufacture, so u can do -20% for the streetprice...

Greetz
HaCo

[Odie]

I am not faulting the administrators of this board, but everyone fails to notice which company advertises 10+ pages a month in their magazine. How would it look to this company to see their name get trashed on a site that is run by the magazine the "sponsor". Understand me?

[Usagi]

I don`t follow, but hey how cares! The Brushless motor is a *********& of a system.;) I love it!

[HaCo]

Odie: no one is trashing Trinity, we are just discussing the good and the bad things about brushles motors, which Trinity seems to ignore, maybe this threath should be a sign for them... Trinity roxxx, but they should follow technology evolutions if they wonna stay on top...
Greetz
HaCo

[Usagi]

What the....................:confused: very much:confused:

[Odie]

What I was trying to say is that you have to question the motives of RCCA in everything since the company in question has quite an interest in the magazine. You all like Trinity, and thats great. I am not going to voice my opinion about the companies (Trinity and RCCA) because this is not the proper venue to do it in.

[HaCo]

Ugh? Usagi? What do u mean?

[mikedude]

Trinity is most likely concerned about what the brushless will do to their business. I'm assuming Novak has some exclusive rights to bring the motor to market because no one else is?
Consider the old battles of VHS vs Beta, cassette tapes vs cd's. Most of the time if a better technology comes out people will switch to it. If the product comes out and is affordable and reliable, then people will want them. If not it will flop.
My two cents is time will tell. Trinity has some very fine products and they will continue to be in demand. Hopefully out of all these battles by r/c industry giants will come some cool racing products for us to enjoy. MikeDude:cool:

[MrShop]

actually the VHS vs Beta wars were very different than this, sony's beta was higher quality than VHS and smaller, but since they didn't want to share thier technology with other companys thier beta tapes were not well supported (lack of video selection). So since all the movies came out on VHS why would someone want a beta?

ps: sorry for being totally off topic here.

[Usagi]

Please do so, I like RCCA and novak and Trinity, please repects other thoughts here.

[25RS]

Racing at the average track with these motors will be far from 'boring'. It takes more driving skill the faster you go... basically this motor will be more power that most carpet tracks can handle..so if the track is an average carpet track it will come down to driving skill, not the motor and battery(will still be a factor somewhat). I know myself and the other guys at the local club will probably be use the system once it gets out. With the added efficiency you could even extend the race to 6-8 minutes. Another thing is that gearing will still be a factor, and from what I understand there is some tuning possible with the speedo too. It will be great because 24 stock sedan is slow and 'boring'.

[MrShop]

i don't know where you race, but at my local track stock class is extremely competitive. It is far from boring even if it does not reach the speeds of the mods.

I see the brushless motors taking over the roles of the modifieds anyways not the stock class.
the stock class was made so people can be competitive without spending a fortune on motor speed ctrl batteries etc.

The brushless system when it comes out, is far from cheap.

[BuckNaked]

Brushless technology is great. To give you a good example I'm working on a new invention. Its brushless toothpaste. Just think how much time you will save.

[muswagon]

Please keep in mind this is strictly my own opinion;

Ernie obviously is speculating on how bad the brushless will be. Kinda like Sony defending the Betamax, and all VHS companies badmouthing DVD. "real" electric or low emission cars are not commonplace because the oil companies have huge power and are afraid of lost revenue. I bet that not only Trinity is scared, but Novak delayed there release to further judge the impact the brushless will have on their high margin and very lucrative ESC's for brushmotors. That is what made Novak what it is. With Brushless you also wont need fancy Nimh 3000 with a millenium charger (also high margin). It will take someone with nothing to lose like Duratrax or Traxxas to actually release brushless in North America.

[Usagi]

I really want one of these systems, can`t wait until june weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[HaCo]

I put my opinion behind the one of muswagon...

[Usagi]

You bet you two rear peaches that trinty is going to hit the market before novak hits with theirs in june.:)

[timberwolf211]

So where on GM's site do you purchase one?

[Usagi]

Gee are the selling them online at GM?:confused:

[TyceCCSU@aol.com]

Avoiding the arguement about which is better, brushless vs brushed motors, I'll elaborate more on the "industry as a whole". Also, 90% of you members don't have a brushless motor, therefor your only stating opinion, which doesn't hold at the track.

As I was saying - With Tekin out of the picture, Novak has monopolized the ESC market. Associated does have it's own line which is competitive but Novak has superior technology with it's programmable ESC's. In addition, Novak speed controlls are the smallest in size on the market with respect to their foward only models. Novak has obviously done there homework as we can see. They started with ESC's, moved to Chargers and now the motor market. You can bet that Novak will be sure to put a quality product and take the motor market with some revenue, if not a good portion if the motor performs well. If Novak motors do perform well on the track, you can bet the house that Trinity will follow suit. In buisness, competition is best for the consumer. This allows prices to drop and technology to improve at a faster rate. Many companies would feel the draw backs of a brushless motor system, one that comes to mind is Warlock. Warlock produces motor shims, brushes, springs yada yada yada, and if the trend moves to brushless they may be put out of buisness.

My 2 cents - Someone stated that RC Car action was not publishing dyno results on brushless motor systems? Well, if the trend follows that this is the biggest thing to hit our underground hobby, you better believe that RC Car Action will be right there. They have to stay neutral, politics aside.

[timberwolf211]

I looked on GM's site and could not see where they are selling them.But if another company is selling them I would like to know where.

[Usagi]

Its far from a total win for Novak, noway! there are alot of other speed control companies making and selling their products. its not a 1.2.3 as you say it is noway!:rolleyes:

[TyceCCSU@aol.com]

I don't know who's post your reading son, but to reiderate, Novak is a Leading company in ESC's in the USA. In addition, they are the # 1 selling charger in the US. Finally, they have a great influence in the hobby and people will buy their motors because they put out only the best of products. Brushless motors have been out for sometime now, but not selling under other company names. There you go, 1.2.3....you want 456? LOL, have a great day.

I'm in no way advocating Novak products, just facts. It's hard to argue with facts. Probably why i hated philosophy, but ironicly the best philosophers were great mathmaticians.

[Usagi]

Ha Ha Ha................ So your your saying Novak is the only company these days? Well they Might be THE only American company "Sir" but many people use LRP. GM, Ko, Etc Etc Etc. So they are not the only game it town.

[TyceCCSU@aol.com]

Good point Usagi, i think I already pointed that out 6 posts ago. At any rate, I'll spell it out for you. Novak's brushless motor will change and alter the revenues for many companies. And as I've passively stated 3 times, they are going to venture uncharted waters with many compainies either following suit or going bank rupt. As I stated before, companies making brushed motor components will be impacted greatly. With brushed motors, you can market may different performance parts. i.e., Brushes, springs, armatures, lathes, dyno's, motor shims, bearings, comm drops, comm cleaners, endbell design, and alignment tools. With brushless motors, you won;t need those components. The point once again, is that Novak will change the motor market greatly.

[muswagon]

Hey TyceCCSU@aol.com,

Keep in mind that the profit margin on Novak "brush" ESC's and chargers are probably alot higher than on a brushless system. You WONT need a fancy charger with a brushless system. They are delaying the release because it could bankrupt themselves, I Guarantee (spoken like the Cajun gourmet, oooh weee that nice!). Once again, Just my opinion.

[Usagi]

aaaaaaaaaaaaa............. this a joke right?
Tyce, all major motor companies are working on a brushless system these days. Wait until you start seeing them pop up trinity, orion, etc etc etc. Novak is not trying to be the only esc in the rc world. They are not big enought to handle that much output in sales.:o

[timberwolf211]

I see this is getting out of hand. First of all Novak is not the only game in town for BL motors. Orion is getting into the market and there is the UK company modeltech which has been doing BL sysytems not to mention other companies that do BL motors.ALso I don't understand your point about not needing a special charger when the BL comes out.People are still going to buy NIMH batts due to their increased runtime over a 1500 pack.So you will still need a good charger to do nicad and nimh and still need to know the read out and peak voltage.Battery care will not change just cause there are BL system.Also from what I have been reading most people who have the BL system are reccomending that you use matched cells of 2400 or better.Yes not every one will go out and buy new batteries cause they just bought a BL but after time I think they will just cause they have learned that with better batts you will get even better runtime and more power.And with the better batts you will want to have a better charger to keep and maintain those batts so they give you the best possible preformance.So Novak and other companies will not go bankrupt due to them releasing the BL motor.Trinitty may be happy right now but they will make a BL motor and be fine.

[Usagi]

Thank you, not much concern about hobby shopslosing money, navak trying to kill off other esc companies etc etc etc etc.....is just to much of a reach. At the end every major motor and esc comapany will have a Brushless system. On every price range.

[Popop]

As i said on this forum some months ago ... Novak has not the sole brushless offer in the world at all !!!
We can point out its knowledge in this techno is also very far from many others brands such as Lehner or Aveox to say a few...

Brush power is obsolete in R/C Boating, Airplane, motorglider or Helicopter competitions for some years now ...
"It's like Deep-Vee in Offshore Class I racing / Time is to Catamaran now ..."

Note also that in Airplane category only a good Neodym brush or a Neodym Brushless propulsion can beat a good engine in overall performance at the same Take-off weight...
Compared to, Ferrite designs, even if highly mods are far too limited ...

To see further than RCCA adds ...
Just have a glance on the Links Page of www.rcsaga.com

Bye

;)

[Usagi]

Well I said there would be BL motors being made but other companies as well 2 months back. Its nice to see that we have chose to pick from:p .

[TheJANG]

<-- Proud regular racer of a Modeltech brushless-powered (single motor) E-Maxx monster truck that can turn lap times to match the 1/8th scale buggies and run 18 minutes on a single charge with two 3000 packs in parallel.

Brushless is real, it's here today, there are controllers that give you as smooth of acceleration as any brushed system. Plus, a proper BL setup has better brakes than any brushed system you will find. A Modeltech BL-powered 'E can freewheel like its transmission was disengaged or it can lock up its tires at 20-30mph on damp clay, or anything in between.

-The JANG

[Usagi]

yes, but the prices now are out of this world, for me here right now.:(

[Popop]

Prices of Brushless tech are essentially dued to :
- rare metal magnets use
- Electronic field management

The second one will see its price down ... as it already does with new designs ... Browse www.ezonemag.com forums for details ... electronic price is always directly concerned by massive production ...

The first one will stay longer but will be altered such as real cars fuel consumption Car is downed year after year ... Optimization ...

The fact is the R/C CAr market is far more $$ important than the Boat and Air (heli/glider/planes) ones ...
The last 2 really downed the price for the BL tech by 2 but surely the best step will be achieved by the R/C CAR market step forward !!
(Note that Jeti esc are very low priced ...They're not Schulze but not so bad ... most of you should consider them for sport use)

P.S.
Note also that Brushed Neodym motors have huge braking capabilities dued to the same magnet origin ...
I always turn off the esc brake when running 1/10 models on Neodym motors and not only on 12 cells!!
(Stopping wheels at more than 50km/h works every time you decide it ...)

... TRINITY will not be the last defeated company for sure
Time to wake up Reedy Sr and Jr !!
:)

[Usagi]

Sure Trinity will be getting into the game very very soon Bank on that right?:)

[muswagon]

To "theJANG"

Hey man, what kind of speed do you get with the single BL. Also, how does it compare torque wise to the new EK4 Nitro that is coming out. Please let me know, thanks.

[Mogo]

Reading all the post it seems one thing is not mentioned.

As we all know the drivers that WIN "local" races are not the ones with the high performance equipment. It really is who is the best driver.

How do you become a better driver? ..practice, practice, practice...

At one time I was a serious competitor...achived this by hours of laps, laps , laps but every 4-5 mins...stop change motor new battery pack repeat. With me it was training the muscles to react on instict to racing .

Without a doubt a motor that runs longer..does not have to be swapped out ....meaning you get to run 7-9 mins stop put in fresh pack and go.. will allow for much longer practices and less interuption to your consentration.


I hope the BL motors make it. It would really help the sport but at the expense of the current motor companies..but that is capitalism at its best ;):)

[Popop]

Really, Car competition is last ...
Boat and Airplanes championships are dominated by Brushless tech from 4 or more years now ...

Furthermore, not only brush tech but Ferrite magnets are very cheap material compared to ones used everyday on current F5D (7cells racer planes) or MONO II (Monohulls on 12cells) ...

The first large retrofit could be the Neodym magnets on existing cans ... I said it 2 years ago but no-one at that time took the idea seriously.

This year some people distribute such neodym-cans for common 05 mods ... And the first jump is a concrete (during +30s) 400W+ input power and a awesome 80% efficiency

Compare it to the "so applaused" 72% efficiency during instant 300W input on the last large brush Trinity .... Especially, note than the resulting torque is here 30% less than the one with Neodym magnets ... Quite poor for a "revolution" considering the level of performance other produce without such a loud advertizing...

Neo cans are for example available from
http://www.fastelectrics.com
(Note that Andrew G. is a Boat specialist)

Bye



:)

[Stampedeguy]

Trinity needs to stop crying and develop their own brushless system and sell it for less than NOVAK, then trinity would dominate. If trinity doesn't develop one, their brushed motors will obviously become cheaper which is a good thing.

[GTpanda]

Popop: cars are last imho because you need a smooth power control over the whole rpm range - I think you don't need it as much in airplanes or boats, as you do in on-road (where wheelspinning like mad just means losing the race)

that's why I'll be cautious with Orion's design, while I'm a bit more hopeful with Novak's, since Novak has a sensor-based system, that is the esc is not guessing at the rotor's position, which would be always wrong at low rpm under heavy load

most people report power control difficulties, even on BL manufacturers' sites they boost "new designs" with "improved power control"

I'd in any case stick with a brand that has cars as their main business, since they couldn't afford a fiasco

moreover, Novak isn't running (to my knowledge) a brushed motor business, and just would NOT profit from a BL fiasco, like Orion would...

didn't want to turn this into a pro-Novak post, and so much less into anti-Orion, but while waiting (can't remember anymore when Novak first announced its BL) I've started thinking hard "what now" when/if it finally comes out...

it's just that after realizing that BL will put an end to my motor-related troubles, by being my last buy on a motor-esc, I'm also realizing that a $250 or more mistake would just as much be my LAST mistake in this hobby! I'm already more and more tired over the price level these things have reached

don't want to make that kind of mistake... ;)

cheers

[TheJANG]

Originally posted by muswagon
To "theJANG"

Hey man, what kind of speed do you get with the single BL. Also, how does it compare torque wise to the new EK4 Nitro that is coming out. Please let me know, thanks.

Man, I just got an email notification of an update to this thread... and your reply was 2 months ago! Ack!

Well, if you're still around to get this message......

I haven't measured my speed with the single motor yet, though I will be doing so once my new chassis comes out (delays, delays, delays). I am certain it goes over 35mph, though, at a mere 7.2V and geared for off-road racing. Geared for speed with 10 cells, folks have been going over 50mph with ease. I'm going to see what mine can do with 24 cells (two 12-cell packs in parallel).

As for torque, I really couldn't say from personal experience, because I can't test the ease of wheelie-ing with my truck because I've modified it to have such a low center of gravity and firm suspension that it basically won't wheelie. I've seen videos of other folks with 8 cells and a single BL, and they were popping the front end up with the greatest of ease, on command. I am certain that a dual BL system would destroy the EK4 in a torque competition, though...

[Popop]

YES throttle control is far more precise and changing on R/C cars than Planes ... and obviously Boats where full throttle is common ... This last type of model really kill motors as well ...

YES the brushless world came with troubles of throttle response ... but between BL ESC manufacturers there's bad, mediocre, good and Excellent ones ...
Schulze IS the best ESC manufacturer. We currently only know one brand wich is used flawlessly by all competitors : it's Schulze ...
Jeti for example commercializes quite affordable ESCs but they do not hold similarly the entitled Max Amp ... Others strong details could be discussed ... Electronic noise, etc.

Concerning the "Car" brands like Orion or Novak, Modeltech or even GM-Racing ... really consider they're not alone to propose products who really work on Competitive touring cars ...
Plettenberg for example produces 2 excellents BLs for 1/10 and a big one for 1/5 touring cars for 2 or more years now with satisfying success .... but not such advertizing in Airage ...

If you turn the page on the BL offer, you'll find like me that it's a mainly a German techno : 13 on 22 worldwide manufacturers (and the best anyway are there)... 5 are U.S. and no-one is Japanese ...

To end my reply, concerning the torque who afraid some of you ... really understand than more torque means that you can overgear the car (Speed+) or manage it to reduce the consumption for a given torque (Duration+) ....
For Off-Road machines, really torque isn't a pb .... 1/8 nitro buggies show the way ... And all my custom neodym machines can be driven FAST without any pb ...

ON-road Serpents with 2hp 3.5cc do the same : The torque is such critical but the best drivers are able to turn faster with it ...

Practice ... Practice ... We'll talk together afterward

P.S.
SOmeones prefer to use 300$ touring cars on ferrite cans ... other prefer to run 80$ cars on Neodym motors ... All exist guy !
And the invest of the second remains intact 10years later.... Could we talk the same about the first ????????
Really my bucks are too precious to waste them on bad power solutions ... I prefer investing in motorizations who allow me to run every kind of model : Airplane, Boats, Cars / This is the preciousness ! The universal power is here .... Why do you prefer yesterday habits ???

Bye





:)