Novak Brushless motors at Chicago Hobby Show!

[JP]

Yes they were there alright. Novak put on a crowd with a small driving area to try the new brushless motors, and an upclose view of them too...running. With the BL motor in a buggy, we got to run many, many packs through it with the ESC getting VERY little heat, and the motor gaining, oh, about 0% heat. Very nice Novak. The schedule ship date is January 2002. Be ready!

[jeepinator]

I have been ready for, oh, say a YEAR.

But, this should be good.
It will certainly usher in a new era. And, for that I am excited.
Trinity is almost certainly lobbying ROAR and NORCCA as I write this, to keep BL motors out of sanctioned events.

[chizzler]

they looked good, but i wouldnt have minded seeing them in a higher wind..... :)

[old phart]

How many winds were they? How did they seem, powerwise? Could they be used in offroad trucks?

[chizzler]

im guessing these were like stock motors... :confused: s l o w :D

[Hairball]

Nice post Hairball. Please try to have some tact. :mad:

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: DerekB ]

Did that really offen anyone? I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Maybe it was. If I offened anyone, sorry.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Hairball ]

[chizzler]

point definately agreed! ;)

[old phart]

chizzler, do I detect a note of sarcasim? :D

[chizzler]

no, why?

this is a great opportunity, no more lathe, no more brushes, no more new motors once the arms blow after 5 runs, just a few thing less to worry about before getting to the track!! :D

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: chizzler ]

[beef_flavored]

this is great! they said the whole package will cost about the same as a high end esc and motor. what is that? like 200?

[ChumsGum]

maxxracer, I know about Tekin's troubles which is why Trinity should step in, buy the company, and together develop their own BL technology.

I'd really like to see the Tekin name continue.

[ChumsGum]

Wow, you mean you can run pack after pack after pack without the motor getting hot? Man, this opens up a lot of doors. Imagine, race heats can now go into the 15, 30, or even 60 minute range with pit stops ala gas cars, but instead of adding gas you'd make a quick batt swap.

[Andrew the RC man]

i hope BLs stay out of ROAR and NORRCA events. it makes it so us poor :( people cant afford to race mod

[jeepinator]

ChumsGum, BL motors do indeed get hot. I have 2 Aveox motors (1409/3Y). They get very hot. In fact, the instructions say if you spit on it and it boils, it is just a bit too hot :)
The main reason they build up so much heat (my theory) is because, 1) They have very long run times. Like twice as long as brushed motors, and 2) The coils are on the outside and the magnets are on the arm. So the heat producing part is physically connected to the can, therefore it is hotter.

But, properly geared, etc they don't get much hotter than standard motors.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: jeepinator ]

[Grizzbob]

I think what a number of people don't realize is that the heat a motor generates is moreso from the current going through it, than from friction. Almost all materials(except for superconductors) have a significant amount of resistance, & when you run current through it, the resistance converts some of the electricity into heat(which is why it's good to have an ESC with lower "On" resistance). I believe this is a part of why certain motors get hotter than others, like the Yok-based stock motors, for example. Both the older Rage & MVP have been heavy current hogs, & they both have had their problems with excess heat. Now, reducing some heat from eliminating friction, as brushless motors do will help some, but the materials they're made of are really no different(the conducting materials, I mean), so I'll bet that's the source of the heat they generate(& they can definitely draw plenty of current, from what I've heard)..... :)

[DerekB]

The only brushless at the Novak booth was in a glass case. The cars running around the track were stock cars with brushed motors and standard Novak equipment.

[Nairb]

Ahh...the truth comes out... :)

Derek, can't you guys at least tell us what they told you about their brushless motors? I saw no mention of BL motors in the hobby show coverage. You KNOW we're all excited to hear about them...

[ChumsGum]

What Trinity should do is buy out Tekin, including the name and its engineers, and develop their own brushless technology. Tekin has excellent engineers and a loyal following, their name along with Trinity on a BL motor w/ ESC would certainly get my vote of confidence. The high prices of BL motors should give Trinity/Tekin enough time for R&D before these new motors become mainstream.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: ChumsGum ]

[maxxxracer]

chumsgums. Tekin will not exist in oh lets say about a year. Thier company is going down the hole. you cant even send your esc to be fixed the them. and alot of places are not carrying tekin products anymore.

About the bl's. They are awsome. I am a no maitence guy, if it aint broke why fix it. So im guessing that my motors in my cars are not faring to well. With a bl motor the only maintinence I would have to do is oil the bearings. now how easy is that. And if it gives me the power of a modified motor I will be getting one. I dont want to spend 200 dollars on a stock motor setup if you know what i mean.

[HauntedMyst]

I was at the show, the only thing the Novak rep said was that they expect it to ship earlier next year.

I'm very pro brushless. I think it will be good for electric racing and for the hobby as a whole. No maintenance, better performance and more efficient. It's the long need shot in the arm electric has waited for. I have no doubt the other motor manufacturers are afraid of it and want to keep it out of competition. That being said, in all the discussions I've read on forum after forum, no one has ever posted a single good reason for it not to be a legal mod racing motor.

[Grizzbob]

There's only one, as far as the sanctioning bodies are concerned, the price. Even mod motors have a price cap, just like stock motors do(stocks are set at $40 retail, & mods at $95). That's why when you look at the retail price of any handwound mod it says $95(though the price you actually pay is usually considerably less), & you can bet that the retail price of a brushless is going to be higher than that(not to mention the cost of the required ESC). Because of that, I'll bet it'll take a minor miracle for the sanctioning bodies to ever accept them.... :p

[maxxxracer]

Myst is right. There is no reason it should not be in modified racing. The only problem I see with it is if it doesn get accepted to racing that it wont become mainstream and trinity and associated/reedy/lrp wont join in on the bl train, and it willl probaly die out in a few years. But thats just a prediction, only time will tell what will realy happen.

[jeepinator]

Let's hope, like the rest of technology, that the prices go down.
The seed is planted. There really is no stopping it.
And, you know what ? I actually don't care if it ever makes it into the racing scene. I have many, many uses for them. I will be buying many, many of them over the years, to be certain. Me, and others like me, will make the demand for these motors grow.
If it never makes it into the racing scene, the only folks to lose out will be ... you guessed it: racers.
So ROAR and whomever else can make their nifty little rules all day. It won't impact me either way.
For the rest of you who want brushless motors, disregard the silly "sanctioning bodies" and have some fun. Buy brushless motor en masse and the cost will go down.
We are only on the second generation here. Imagine when the 4th or 5th generation models come out. They will be very refined. I am looking forward to it, and it WILL happen, with or without ROAR.

[HauntedMyst]

Grizzbob,
The only hole in that is: Novak simply places the price of the motor at $95.00 If the whole package costs $250, they just say the retail on the motor is $95.00 and the speed control retails for $255, which isn't out of line of a top of the line speedo. Granted, I haven't heard much of pricing other then around $200 for the set up.

[old phart]

Derek, this doesn't look like it is in a glass case:

http://attach.prospero.com/ab-rcvehicles/general/docs/247B8B52-A3EE-11D5-8975-000629DE11AE/novak01.jpg?urlcreated=37144.139375&check=2F167C7D889B0108C0FBF6408DEC6D1D

Are you positive they didn't run any brushless equipped cars at the show?

[bullfrog]

heya dude the pic dont work.o and BTW how fast will these things go about how many rpms??

[DerekB]

They had one working model, and that was on rollers in a glass case. It was in a XXX. I got to feel the throttle response on it. The cars going on the track were NOT brushless.

[outsider]

I'll be getting one and when the demand goes up, prices drop. It's all supply and demand. To think the prices will always stay the same is naive. And if you ask me, the will just create a new class(es) for the brushless instead of letting them race alongside brush motors.

[Serius Black]

Outsider -

The only way the price of Novak's system will drop is if they are an absolute flop. Have you seen the price of Cyclones drop? Have you seen the price of thier XXL drop. I haven't.
I think the the rumored price is decent, especially for such a "revolutionary" item. When you add up the money you're going to save from not having to buy brushes and comm cuts, it seems even more reasonable.
People have complained about not being able to afford running mod anymore when these things come out, but think about it: With the huge increase in eficiency, you won't need to buy 3000's in order to make run time. Punchier 2000's and 2400's should work fine.

[jeepinator]

SB, I am not arguing with you here, as your point has some validity ...

But (hehe the required butt ), comparing a nth generation device (I am not sure .. 8th generation ?) like a modern ESC with a first generation or second generation device, like Novak's new product is really not valid.

How much do you think the first ESC's were ? I have no clue, but I am willing to bet that in inflation corrected dollars they were a ton !

I am willing to predict that the prices will go down on brushless systems because of the following reasons:
1) A common protocol will be developed for the synchro and power wires running between the ESC and the motor
2) Because of the above you will be able to buy the motor from company A and the controller from company B
3) Because of number 1 more companies will be willing to participate and manufactur the devices. Competition, as we all know, benefits the consumers. I am assuming this benefit will be: cheaper hardware.
4) The R&D for Novak, at this point, has got to be huge. They have been developing this system FOREVER. They need a return on this investment right now, and they know that early adopters usually have no problem with paying the big bucks. When Novak is sure they have created a new market segment, and gen 2 comes out, with reduced R&D costs, prices will go down.

Unless I completely do not understand business or economics, prices will go down, at least a little.

[Grizzbob]

I don't know, if you go by how ESC prices have been over the years, then no, they won't go down much at all. They cost about the same since I started(over 12 years ago), & the high end stuff is considerably more expensive. Now, about the whole sanctioning body thing, I realize that plenty of tracks(& all backyard bashers) won't care about who approves it, but like it or not, racing still sells products(why else do we see Kinwald's name on amlost everything?), & it's pretty obvious that, as with pretty much all such organizations at all levels(full scale included) politics still plays a bigger role than what the "average joe" wants. And I think it's also pretty obvious how much influence a certain big name motor manufacturer has on the racing scene(including those organizations). Like I said, most people may not care, but to those of us who do race it does matter, & that's why the debate over it all continues. Personally, I like the idea, but I doubt I'll buy one unless it becomes neccessary to stay competitive, not to mention the fact that I enjoy working on brushed motors. I get a lot of satisfaction in getting a little more out of my(or my friends') motors, & that would disappear with brushless(can't even dyno one, they're AC motors, & all current dynos are DC only)..... :cool:

[draggerman11]

Heres what I envision(its short and sweet :p ) Most all backyard/street bashers buy them, forcing big name motor companies to make them, to "get on the band wagon" with Novak, Modeltech etc.. So they make some money while there is the "Brushless craze". Because of the amount of people owning them, and companies making them, ROAR and NORRCA are forced to make a class for em'

Of course this IS a theory, and may not happen! :p

[modeltech]

jeepinator,

Prices WILL come down in the fullness of time, but only when volumes increase, you are quite right about R&D recovery.

BL motors and controllers CAN be mixed between manufacturers right now providing 2 basic criteria are observed:
1: The maximum constant current requirement of the motor does not exceed the maximum current limits of the controller.
2: You can't drive a sensorless type motor with a sensor type controller (BUT you CAN drive a sensor type motor with a sensorless type controller).

Note, if you check out our web site, you will see that we have just released our 2nd generation motor design :)

Hope this helps.

[jeepinator]

Wow :eek: !
Confirmation from an expert :p

Thanks modeltech, for the info !

Can you answer another question for me ?
How much complexity, especially in comparison to other hurdles, is there in developing the software and making the motors have a high level of driveability ?

I guess, rephrased, how hard was it to make them user friendly ? And then compare this task with any or all other tasks that were required to bring this product to market.

Thanks !

[InspGadgt]

Andrew, I wouldn't worry about competing against people running brushless with budget stuff because you can't afford a brushless system yourself. The people who will be racing those will be the same people who allready have the expensive top of the line speed controllers and fast hand wound motors whom you can't keep up with allready.

As for should they be race legal? Heck yes! Look, people are allready running motors that way exceed the cars suspension limits and new brush motor technology is constantly taking us further past that thresh hold. Going to a fast brushless motor is not going to change that fact. The only affect on racing I see with brushless motors is longer run times and lower maintenance costs. And with battery technology growing as fast as it is cars "dumping" before the end of a race is rarely ever seen anymore so as long as the race durations don't change then the longer run times of the brushless motors will not have an affect on racing as a whole...

Just my 2 cents

[ChumsGum]

Tell me something, do these new brushless motors have their own ESC built in? Will they require a special BL ESC? Will standard ESCs work with BL motors?

[draggerman11]

They have their own special esc, so regular esc's will not work. They are not built in.

[Andrew the RC man]

Insp- *frowns* 1. im a darn good driver. 2. i can afford expensive 3 times a year. 3. i dont have a place to race until i get my license

[Rotorranch]

Novak sent me the followiing Email regarding the MSRP of the "Brushless Motor System".

RotorSubj: Re: Brushless motors
Date: 9/10/01 11:22:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: jackie@teamnovak.com (Customer Service)
To: Rotorranch@aol.com

We do not have a lot of information available. The reason we are being so
silent is because the project testing is revealing a lot of changes that
dramatically affect our decisions for product configuration. Price and
performance numbers are greatly affected by some of these changes and for
that reason we are not giving out any information. We do not want to mislead
anyone. Our goals right now are to make an affordable Brushless motor
system (motor and controller), that is very drivable, and user friendly, for
standard 6 cell R/C applications, that is as close to the price of a high
end ESC and a Mod motor as possible. We are not making a speed run motor or
a monster horsepower motor. It is being designed for everyday use. We see
this motor design being used for back yard bashing and racing. I can assure
you that this project is having a lot of manpower thrown at it to ensure
that the final product will be able to maintain the Novak Electronics
standards of quality.

I hope that I have answered your question. If you need further
help, please call for Technical Assistance at (949) 833-8873. There is also
much more information available on our web site at www.teamnovak.com. (http://www.teamnovak.com.) Our
service hours are Monday through Friday from 8:00 am to 5:00 PM PST and
Friday from 8:00 am to 4:00 PM (we are closed every other Friday).

Sincerely,
Charlie Suangka,
Application Support

[ILv2Xlr8]

FYI, I looked up prices on Modeltech (www.modeltech.co.uk) brushless motors.
Pro-Race forward and proportional brakes, Brushless Motor Controller: £160.00
Pro-Spec Torque IN-DOOR Kv. 4,500 rpm/volt 84% - 89% Eff: £139.00
UK £ Total: £299.00
Rate: 0.88
US $ Total: $339.75