4wd E-Buggy Racing in 2005

[Cain]

Hello.

I am posting this to get some feedback from the community on there thoughts concerning the state of 4wd electric buggy racing.

This year there is a big selection of competition level vehicles to choose from. These start from the ultra cheap to the ultra expensive for the varying tastes of the consumer and give a good spread for participation in the class.

My concern however is that at alot of tracks the classes for 4wd buggy always seem to default to mod. From what I see however, not having a slower controllable class as an entry point into 4wd buggy is one thing that will hinder the growth of the class.

I have heard before the reasoning that 4wd buggy should be an elite class, but, at the same time I hear the same racers complaining that there isn't anyone to race against. To me, I look at it from the perspective of touring car racing in that you have your various classes, stock, 19 turn, and modified.

You have a various amount of skill levels in the 3 classes, with stock being the most diverse . However, without an entry point into sedan racing with stock, forcing everyone to start with modified, you run into a situation where you have guys buying motors who obviously can't control the modified power as well as a feeling that the class is too expensive do to a perceived high cost of equipment for the class. ( I say perceived, as depending on how competitive you want to be, stock can be just as costly ). Touring may not be where it is today if there wasn't a stock class for the new hobbiest to start out in and feel comfortable racing even against the seasoned competition.

[MrB1973]

Hard to argue with that logic. I'll be honest, I was thinking about a buggy to race, but there isn't even a 2wd class around here.

[Cain]

( CONTINUED wouldn't all fit )

Another statement I have heard is that you should run 2wd buggy or 2wd truck and then move over to 4wd. From what I have experienced, 4wd offers the most control just by the nature of it being 4wd versus 2wd. The issue however is that with a defacto mod only class being run for 4wd, the speeds at which these vehicles can reach puts the control ability necessary to drive them out of the hands of the starting racer. Even today's stock motors can overpower alot of racers in the 2wd classes.

Alot of drivers who start out in the 2wd classes stay there, and a good portion stick with stock as the default power in there vehicle. To look for drivers to make the switch from the 2wd class they have experience in to the 4wd and also shoot them in the default mod class is asking alot. Alot of drivers even interested in mod will just stick with there current 2wd chassis instead of making the switch from an investment prespective.

Another issue I have also heard stated was that the vehicles are complex and also prone to breakage. For the first issues of complexity, these vehicles are no more complex than there 4wd touring counterparts which have a popular following with the novice racer. Even more so, these vehicles don't require as precise setup as a racing touring vehicle to still be competitive at most club levels due to the nature of offroad racing.

[Cain]

As for the durability, I think consideration must be made that as the class is a default mod motor class at most tracks, these high speeds don't allow vehicles to survive crashes that would otherwise result in no damage in a slower more controllable spec class. From my experience running mod 4wd, the vehicles being produced today, especially the Academy SB, are very durable and can take the abuse as well as there 2wd counterparts, even better in alot of cases.

I believe what is needed to have an increase in the 4wd electric buggy racing is the creation of stock or "spec" class to compliment the mod class at the local level.

Make these classes accessible to the new driver or the experienced driver who doesn't want to run full blown mod. With the slower speeds, this will cut down on the excessive breakage label applied to these vehicles as well have a base of drivers who will eventually move up in speed as there skills allow hence growing the faster classes as well. The classes would also draw on those who run 4wd touring in the winter (snow states ) and want to run offroad in the summer if they can have a similar vehicle to run ( ie- parts interchangeability ).

[Cain]

I believe that to have the best of both worlds, the 19 turn powerplants currently used today will provide the balance of power with control that we seek. After racing mod and using a 19 turn motor to see how it would react, I feel that it was a controllable option that on the tighter sections more than held its own against some of the hot mods being run. Stock motors are also an option however alot of the high RPM low torque motors are not very functional in a 4wd vehicle.

Ultimately, for those who love the class and want to see it grow, sacrificing some all out speed present in today's mod defacto 4wd classes for more competition I believe would be a small price to pay if it results in a significant growth in the class at the local level.

I hope for this summer season to work on getting the class to grow at my local level with these concepts and to see an increase in 4wd electric buggy racing participation.

[Cotharyus]

I have to say that 4wd electric was without a doubt the most intense class I ever raced. Nothing - and I mean absolutly *nothing* - can touch the acceleration and resposiveness of a 4wd buggy. I would buy another buggy and all the batteries and motors all over again if I thought the class would pick up in this area. However, around here, monster trucks and RTR buggies have made things so easy to get into compared to any sort of electric, that having an electric class at an offroad track is almost a novelty anymore.

[racer234]

Cain- I have to agree with you.
I started racing (competitively) this last summer. I've always liked stadium trucks so I got a T4, electronics. My track only offers one class- Mod. Naturally I went out and got an Orion Revolution 12x2; big mistake. I couldn't control the thing, the only reason I got it is because, like a lot of newbies, I thought I'd need it to compete in mod. Now I've got a 16x2 (speed gems :rolleyes: ) in my truck, and instead of being down from the pack by two laps at the end of every race, I'm right in there taking third or fourth. I still have some catching up to do, but I'm getting there as my skills progress. My brother has a XXX-4, and he says he won't race cause "it's an easy way to lose $12". The entire 4wd class is made up of veteran racers, and although my brother is pretty fast, it would be very hard for him to catch a top three finish. Sometimes I wish our track would open up a stock or spec class (as you mentioned) but I don't think it would be cost effective, as everyone there has been racing for years and feels comfortable in mod.
ok, I'm done ranting :p

[Cain]

Thanks for the responses guys. I think that with some thought put into it and discussion, mod guys who have invested dollars in mod motors would be willing to run a spec style class if it meant only buying one more motor. I believe that a 19 turn motor would be the perfect spec option as they make great torque ( the 19T Quad Mag and Orion Element / Peak Dynasty do at least ) and offer a good balance of power and control at the same time.

Running all out mod and hoping that newbies or veterans in other classes with mainly stock experience will throw there hat in to the 4wd ring just isn't working.

Make the class more accessible to these people, and you will grow the class. Ultimately, with that growth, mod can grow as well.

[InspGadgt]

All very sound arguments however...remembering back to the time when 4wd buggy essentially died out, this was before touring cars really became popular. There was a short resurgance later on but it was short lived. All the arguments for 4wd being mod at the time were based on an RC world that didn't yet have touring cars or where touring cars were still a very new thing so they were pretty much sound for the time. But times change and now 4wd is common place in on-road.

But as for starting a stock or spec class...that's somewhat more difficult. Typically classes do not get started by the "build it and they will come" attitude. In order for a class to be started there first must be enough people interested in running it that ask their race director for a class to suit them.

[Cain]

I agree which lends itself that at tracks where 4wd is completely gone, if some guys get together and want to start racing 4wd, they should shoot to have a spec class first and look to build off of that before moving towards mod. Specing off of a motor limits one aspec of perceived cost. 19 turn power is a great way to do this and satisfy some of that power bug as well as being controllable.

It may take guys willing to run 4wd vehicles regardless if a true 4wd class is present to gain interest and show the easy of use, durability, etc of the current crop of 4wd vehicles out there now. I have done this, and it has generated interest and a purchase in the limited time I did in the fledging 4wd class at the time.

[Combatcm]

I raced a tamiya baja king just to get in 4wd class. It's a very tough class, their light weight makes them hard to race. The hard part is trying to swing the car through turns without understeering, and exiting the turns without throwing the light buggy all over the place. I may put my baja king aside and use a blazing star because of it's longer travel arms. I suggest for all the people who are interested to try the tamiya buggies, they may not be race bred, but some turnbuckes and few other mods they could compete with the better ones. Or just race it stock for fun. At least you can compete without spending money on a more expensive car.

I will say that a reedy spec motor and a 16T chrominum gave nearly the same performance on the track for me and offered the same top speed.

Plus tamiya buggies rule.

[Cain]

glad to see another 4wd runner!

[DJ1978]

Most tracks in our area say, 3 cars make a class.
I have to admit, at the track we run, not many have asked about a stock 4 wheel drive class.
When we announce the 4 wheel mod class we say they are the F-1 cars of Electric Off Road. That may scare some away... but our class is growing. usually 3 heats.

[Cain]

Thats great that you class is growing and if it is working out by you more power to you guys!! One thing however I would say to ask yourself and the others, do you believe that if a motor along the power level of say the 19 Turn class would help to increase interest in running 4wd at your track and how many would be opposed to running it?

If you guys could try it out, 19 turn for a few races and see how you like it, maybe it would be an option.

Good luck on keeping the class going and glad to see 4wd alive in your area!

[Cain]

I got a thread going on www.rctech.net about ways to grow the 4wd class in general and would love to have your opinions posted there as well. The link is this:

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60559&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

I look forward to your thoughts and opinions.

[glassdoctor]

Cain, I feel your pain. 4wd buggies are the most fun to race of any car, imo.

I have a different thought on the 4wd struggle. I think the 4wd mod class is easier for a guy to compete because many top racers stick to 2wd cars. I think at most tracks the hot drivers run mod buggy and truck most often. Most don't even own a 4wd. So if you are bottom of the A-main racer in 2wd, then you can probably have a better shot if you run 4wd because there are always fewer fast guys.

That's a good thing for an average racer wanting to compete and have fun. But it's also bad for the class as a whole, because many of us want to run against the best... which means mod buggy... the 2wd kind. So the 4wd class often doesn't get much support from fast locals.

The exception is when a couple fast guys get a 4wd and it becomes a fad, and everyone wants a piece of the action. That happened when the XX4 was new.

IMO, we don't need more stock or spec classes. We have novice, stock buggy and truck. When a racer is ready for mod class, then he can run a 4wd. Maybe tracks could allow a 4wd in novice with the trucks and buggies if a kid wants to run stock 4wd. Most tracks can barely scratch together one 4wd class, let alone a mod and stock/spec class.

I would have no interest in running a 4wd if it's going to be slower than my buggy. 4wd are made to go fast... faster than 2wd.

[docman2]

Besides the whole 19t motor as a "spec" class dosnt work. A 19t motor is basically a stock can with a 19t arm. So a guy can stick a 19t straight from the pack into his car and think he is equal. Problem is the guys that like and know how to tune motors will still blow him away. There is a big difference between a 19t that has been tuned and one that hasnt. Thats really what ruined the stock class, new guys cant compete.
Your better off running a mod motor with the timing at 0deg and a smaller pinion to slow it down to be driveable. As their skills increase they can slowly crank up the power or gearing.
Its really a topic that has been discussed in every class of racing and no one has came up with a solution. Motor tuning kills a stock/spec type class and its hard to convince someone to make their car go slower on purpose in mod.

[adam lancia]

i don't think motor tuning kills a stock or spec class. if there are guys out there that can get the most out of a stock motor, what says a new racer can't do the same? the guy who has tons of horsepower has probably spent countless hours fiddling and tuning and has earned those few extra horses. can a new racer not do this? or even better, can the experienced racer not teach the new racer the tricks of the trade? i know there are experienced guys who race and absolutely refuse to share any of their secrets, but there are just as many who willing help out newcomers with just this type of thing. i think 19 turn for a spec 4wd class would be awesome. i'd love to break out my kyosho lazer and strap in a reedy quad mag but in full blown mod class, i'll get killed but i don't have the experience with a 4wd buggy to completely handle a 10 double. a month or 2 with 19 turn and maybe that 10 double isn't as daunting as it was.

adam

[Cain]

Thanks for the replies guys. If you can, post your thoughts as well on the rctech.net board.

From my experiences and thoughts, I think that what happens ( I probably stated this above already ) is that the guys who start off in say stock truck or stock buggy, 2wd, generally move up into the mod class and sit there. Not many shoot over to 4wd. If we can somehow start them in 4wd with a reasonably powered vehicle ( I think 19 turn, stock to me is too slow ) they will stick with it. But if ultimately the only class available for that vehicle platform is defaulted to mod and the other 2 classes have a slower controlled class available, those people will naturally go to that class.

As for the motor tuning issue, I think its at a lower level as if it was a major issue you would see a large drop off in alot of the stock classes and a significant increase in mod. Stock classes seem to be the largest classes run. I think the main issue related to the motor tuning is that you have alot of guys who are sitting in stock when they really should be in 19 turn or modified as they are squatters on the top levels but don't want to go back to having to earn it against similar competition.

[Cain]

[continued]

It may be argued then that if we default to a 19 turn class for 4wd, we will get squatters again. Well, from the perspective that the class isn't run enough to really even have multiple classes of 4wd, grouping around a spec motor for now would be a great way to start it back up again. Once the numbers justify it, run mod then.

Someone on another thread put it quite well, would you rather run mod with 4 vehicles or a spec class with 16 vehicles? Essentially stating that from his experiences, he saw a growth in 4wd racing due to the accessibility now available in the class. You can read his post on the www.rctech.net thread.

Another thing to remember is that with a spec controlled motor, especially in offroad, you still have to drive the vehicle. You still have to contend with jumps, bumps, etc. at least now you are more similar powerwise than before.

[Combatcm]

I just say stick with the mod class. Even if it were 19T people would still feel limited in their equiptment. In a club level, people may not even want to buy a 19T motor, they just might have a 15T laying around and then race in mod. Then you step back and look at the vehicles for this class. The XXX4 is belt drive, even proven as good, even I don't trust a belt in an offroad vehicle. Some people think the SB sport is good, but to be honest you are never going to see an SB sport (and pro) on the winning 10 in magazine covered events. Although I would enjoy some diversity, people race what wins. For racing, people would shove aside tamiya buggies, although some people might have a little faith in the DF-02 chassis, with some upgrades in can be decent.

Cars before rules.

[Cain]

Combatcm: Thank you for your comments.

Just FYI - The SB Sport placed 8th at the stock nationals in 2004 which the BJ4x4 won. It also is being raced quite successfully at the club level as well as the other 4wd vehicles out now ( BJ4x4, X-5, to name a few ).

As for the limited equipment feel, I look at it as the fact that its true there would be people who feel limited by there equipment, but that feeling would be much worse in a mod only environment which these same people would gravitate towards a more controlled speed class.

Some will say good, but, at the same time we must remember that as these people become more experienced, they will be the veteran racers later on who have in turn added another person to that class they enter into and are likely to stick with that class over jumping to 4wd mod. If we have that person instead added to the 4wd rolls, you just increased 4wd participation by one.

Good posts guys, keep it coming!

[docman2]

Im not sure how much time you guys have around the racing circle but the guys that run stock are the hard core old timers. They are the ones that love spending hours tuning motors to get an advantage. They have spent years learning these skills and a newbie cant compete because he cant just instantly learn these skills. Thats why these guys stay in stock class, to keep their advantage. If they move to mod they lose that advantage. Someone wants more power that just drop in a lower turn motor. This is more on the local/state type level. Sure when you get into big time pro level type racing they still tune the mods but its not as important at the lower levels. I know, Ive spent a lot of time with a dyno playing with stock/spec motors. The 19t motors are really just the new "stock" motor and you have they same thing happen.
If you really want a spec type class you can always go with something like a Trinity 21t Spec motor and dont allow tuning of it. Even then there are ways people use to get an advantage with the motor. They will buy lots of motors to find a really good one or run the motor for hours to wear down the comm. Then the RPM picks up on it. So there really isnt an easy way to solve this problem. Like I said before its been hashed over for years in every class but you always have those guys that will go out of their way to get a motor advantage.
What we did at the track I run at is to switch to mild mod motors. We went with the Kyosho 17t motors first. They are cheap and with their fat comm and 5mmX5mm brushes they last forever. This way everyone was running the same thing and motor tuning didnt play a role. As time went on we dropped down to the 14t motors. Over time people got used to the speed and the track got larger we moved down to the 12t motors and have stuck with it. Thats what we have stuck with and we run them in 2wd, STs, and 4wd buggies. We all run the same thing, the motors are inexpensive, and the tuning is not a factor. You cant really tune the brushes since they are an odd size. This means no silver brushes to play with. You can crank up the timing but we all do that anyway so if you go to far it just hurts more than it helps.
That was our solution and we save about $15 to 20 on the motors over a stock or 19t.

[Cain]

docman2: Good post.

I agree that there is going to be the tuning factor as with anything. You probably can do some tuning of your Kyosho motors, etc .I had one of those Kyoshos in, now that is a BIG Comm :)

Ultimately however there is a point where tuning can only get so much out of a motor and you have to drive the thing.

My thing is for the new guy coming in or the 2wd stock / 19 turn racer who is thinking of taking on the 4wd buggy class, a controlled entry point could help things.

By the way, how are you guys liking not running all out mod?

[docman2]

Well really we are running all out mod since we are using 12t motors. I guess we could still go hotter like a 10t but its not really worth the money for a little more speed. I really couldnt imagine running anything slower unless it was a very small track. In 4wd I cant see going less than a 12t.
The few things you could do to the Kyosho 12t wouldnt make enough difference to be considered "tuning". You could just turn up the timing a lot easier and see more of a difference. With that you can only go so far.

I know you can only tune a motor so far but they will show a big difference on the track. Ive seen people tune a 19t so it ran like a hot mod. The average guys that couldnt tune a motor like that looked like they were sitting still.
Like I said Ive seen this for years, first in stock and then in 19t. You just wind up with the motor tuners in those classes and the new guy still cant compete. You will really notice it in 4wd since they are so much easier to drive and put down the power. Spec class is a good idea on paper but it just dosnt work on the track. The new guys still get left out. The only way it will work is to get a group that agrees to use the exact same motor and Not tune them.
A few years ago they came out with a 5deg motor that tuning on did no real good. The idea was to make everyone equal and take the tuning out of it. It was a flop. The only people willing to run a slower/ or spec type class was the motor tuning guys so no one wanted to use it. The idea just dissappeared.
Sorry, Im really not trying to shoot your idea down its just Ive been through it and seen it happen so much over the years and its never worked.

[Cain]

docman2: not a problem. I appreciate your opinion on the subject and you raised a good point. I just feel that even with these issues, the most popular class I have seen has been the stock classes which I attribute to the fact of easy access, controllable speed, etc. 19 turn for my suggestion is a way to have some good power for 4wd but still be controllable.

As for the Kyosho, I probably could shoot it by Big Jim and get him to tune one up, I wouldn't be suprised if he could.

[robertsonsr/c]

here in west tn we are getting a brushless 4wd class. Have about 6 already and people always looking for one to grab up to run.
No motor worrys and they can worry more about there nitros and let loose in this class