Getting started

[JimC]

Wanted to run some things by people with recent experience in electric RC. I had an original rc10 buggy from the late 80's (still have it). After some thought, I decided to get into on-road stock electric racing. There is an outdoor asphalt road course track in southern MD I'm going to start at. This is my current plan based on reading some recent threads, let me know your thoughts.

-I have a TC4 kit shipping out to me
-Start with 2 GP 3300 battery packs
-Novak Dually ESC
-Trinity p2k2 Pro Stock motor (Is the Reedy MVP better? 'bout the same? Track is road course, short to medium in length)
-Airtronics MX-3 (Kind of undecided on radio, but seems to be a decent one for a weekend LHS racer)
-Intellipeak AC/DC Digital Pulse Charger

Any problems with this setup? I'm estimating about $600 for the above. I know I need tires, tools, and lots of practice. 4WD is new to me. Thanks for your input!

[JimC]

Also, I'll look for soldered battery packs, not welded.

[EvaderST Expert]

Well JimC, The RC10 Buggy are nice looking vehicles, definately good batteries, the trinity motor may help the RC10 with the correct gearing. Airtronics does make good radios. Soldered battery packs are better than welded. It will be a rather expensive setup. The rc10 is an offroad vehicle, but with the 4wd it should do good for road. I would also try the Hi-tec 625-Mg steering servo. Its strong quick and cheap. Well i hope i helped you. Good luck with your rc10

[Mike01]

I would strongly recommend not getting the Intellipeak charger. Strongly.

Instead, I would get a power supply from Radio Shack (25A, 100 bucks, about the size of a hardcover book) and a DC charger. You will be getting more batteries, and each one is very expensive. It would be a shame to ruin them. A very good charger is the Duratrax Intellipeak ICE...I believe it is made by the same people who make the Great Planes Triton, which is an exceptionally precise and high quality charger. The ICE is geared more towards competetive racing, with higher charge and discharge currents. It can also charge Lithium batteries. It costs 130 bucks, not much more than the intellipeak. You will of course have to fork over bucks for the power supply, but it will come in very handly later on.

I also recommend you not buy any stick packs and only use side by side packs. They are not more expensive. You can find them assembled for about 40 bucks online (Promatch racing, etc.) You should also get an equalization tray. The best tray on the market is the Novak Smart tray, but that's pricey. You can get away with an Integy Zero Equalizer (it's only 20 dollars) if you get the ICE, since the ICE can discharge at 10 amps and the tray can finish the job.

A good all around tray is the Integy Octane 2, which discharges at 20A (better for the cells), and that's fifty bucks. So you have three choices in trays, ranging from almost free to almost a hundred bucks.

In electric racing, batteries are 33% of the action. Motor and chassis make up the other 66. Batteries are, however, easily the least understood and most often abused component. If you buy a bad charger and don't equalize your packs, you will waste more money on batteries than your motor and chassis cost.

[JimC]

Maybe I came across wrong. I mentioned the RC10 buggy to show my experience with RC or more appropriately lack there of. I have ordered the new Team Associated TC4 kit after debating the TC3 Factory Team.

Hope that helps.

[JimC]

I don't have experience with the DC only chargers, which is why I shyed away from them. The one I listed can charge up to 6.5 amps. What is wrong with the AC/DC chargers? I read that there is more cooling with the DC. Just trying to understand the why part.

I'll look into the ICE model from Duratrax.

Thanks.

[Mike01]

There is nothing wrong with AC/DC chargers. Not exactly.

What makes them wrong is that they are cheap and not very precise. The reason is, most people who buy high end chargers want DC, since they already have a power supply and are running a bunch of ther stuff from it. There are some very good AC/DC chargers. Integy makes one (too many numbers to remember...16x7x6??), Reedy makes one (Quasar Pro)...but most of them are cheap and prone to over charging. I watched a 100 dollar Duratrax charger cook a brand new 3300 pack before my eyes.

I know little about the ICE, but if it's made by the same people as the Trion (GP owns Duratrax, the ICE takes the Trion's thermal probe, and has very similar capabilities), then it's one of the best chargers on the market.

No matter which charger you decide on...get a tray and use side by side packs, or else not even a 400 dollar charger will be able to save your packs.

[gizmoguy303]

I think you should buy a B4 or XXX BK2 instead of trying to race the RC10. It's too old.

Just kidding. :p

Good choice with the TC4. No mistakes there. I agree with all of your choices except for the charger, since you WILL eventually replace that charger as you get more competitive in your racing. Here is something I posted in another thread. I have adapted it to your situation and added some more things to make it even more informative and helpful:



Start out with the best you can afford. If you buy cheap entry-level stuff, you are just going to end up replacing it when you become more competitive.

For radios, the Airtronics M8 is the most popular radio out there for competitive racers. The KR Propo Helios (which seems to be extremely popular with on-road racers) and the Futaba 3PK are other high-end radios. Feel each one in your hand to find what is comfortable with you. In the more budget-oriented category, there is the Airtronics MX-3 (and it's synthesized counterpart MX-3S). The conventional crystal-using version runs around $90-$100, while the synthesized version (no crystals) runs a bit more. Remember, if you (more like ONCE you) get competitive, you are going to want an M8 or something similiar in the future.

The LRP Pulsar Competition and Pulsar Competition 2 are very good chargers. The latter is basically a jazzed-up version of the original Pulsar Competition. Another option is the Novak Millennium Pro. I would get the LRP, as it has motor run-in and discharge features that the Novak lacks. If you really want to go high-end, you could get a Competition Electronics Turbo35. The Pulsar is used by many top racers and is a very good charger.

Batteries are often one of the last things a beginning racer thinks about, yet they are actually extremely important. Some battery matchers to check out are:

www.surgeworldwide.com
www.promatchracing.com
www.kinetixrc.com

There are many, many more, but these are some of my favorites. Usually, you buy the 6-cell set of cells and assemble them yourself. It isn't as hard as it may sound, but if you want, many matchers offer to assemble the cells for you. Batteries make a big difference in your power, especially in stock racing. Remember, if you go high-end in the battery department, make sure not to cheap out on the chargers and other equipment you'll be using to take care of those expensive batteries.

Speaking of extra battery equipment, you will also need a discharger (with an automatic cut-off at 5.4v) and a discharge tray. Integy sells both of these - the Integy Reactor (available in 20 or 30 amp discharge versions) and a variety of discharge trays. Pick up a Reactor 30 and the $20 Integy tray. After running your race or practice run, discharge the pack on the Reactor, then, before you re-charge it, equalize all the cells on the tray. Always wait until the cells fully cool before recharging - I usually wait around 2 hours.

For motors, see what motor the fast guys at your track are running. Easiest way to do it. If your track is small and tight, the Trinity P2K2 will probably be best. If it's a bit larger, the Monster Stock would be better. IMO, the Monster is a good all-around motor for most tracks.

The LRP QC2 (Quantum Competition 2) would be my choice for an ESC, however it is pretty expensive. On the lower end of the spectrum, there is the Novak Dually, which is a decent entry-level ESC with no-motor limit. Check out eBay as well if you're on a budget. Novak Cyclone C2's (a discontinued Novak ESC) work well. The Dually you chose will work fine, but it's a bit big. You shouldn't have a problem installing it in the TC4, however you might not be able to mount the receiver flat on the chassis.

Also, get some good tools. Integy sells a set of hex-drivers that are awesome and the price can't be beat. www.integy.com

After looking at your list, here is my version:

TC4
4 - 1.170v or better GP3300 packs (in SBS configuration, my favorite matcher is SURGE)
Novak Dually
Trinity Monster Stock
Airtronics M8
LRP Pulsar Competition 2
Novak N-Power
Integy Reactor 30
Integy Zero-Equalizer Discharge Tray

That is a very competitive setup, and with decent driving skills will definitely win races. To save money, you could opt for the MX-3 in place of the M8, and two or three packs instead of four. However, it is good to have a pack for each heat and the main. Most tracks run 3 qualifiers and a main, so four packs is the solid way to go. Also - buying used can save you A LOT of money, so don't forget to check out eBay or the For Sale/Trade forum here for things such as ESC's, high-end radios, chargers, and power supplies. A used Pulsar Competition can be found for around $100 and M8's go for around $150-$200.

Good luck!

[Mike01]

All good advice, all good chargers. The ICE is new, and few people know about it. I believe it is better than any of those listed above, and it charges Lipos.

Radio...there are a few features you need for racing...digital trims (for precision), dual rate or adjustable rate steering, and travel limiting ability. My radio has more features, none of which I use for racing. I like multi-model memory, but in practicality, a 3 channel FM receiver is almost 50 bucks. I'll stick with the RTR radios for muy fun RC kits. My radio has a three channel memory, of which I use two, both for on road cars. A lot of the fancier features are really for nitro cars and to sell radios to people who want to spend a lot of money on a radio to feel competetive. IF you go with digital servos, then it becomes another matter altogether.

You do not need a discharge device AND a tray. Some trays are both...most good chargers can discharge too. You need something than can charge batteries, something that can discharge them quickly, and something that can discharge individual cells to equalize the pack. If one device can do all three, great (no such thing), but two devices should be all you need.

[Mike01]

ESCs...

You do not need to go crazy in that department for some time. A $50ESC should be plenty, and you will never need to throw it away unless you are certain you will never play around in any other aspect of RC. I have three ESCs that I bought, not including the one I use in my race car, and all are put to good use.

Only a really really fast driver can notice the difference between a QC2 and a Duratrax Intellispeed in terms of on track performance.

However...a better ESC will give you slightly longer run times and a cooler running motor. These things may be important to you...if they are, by all means, get a good one.

The best motor/ESC combination you can get is a Novak SS5800, but only if your track allows them. My tracks lets you use them in both stock and modified racing (in stock racing they have to be set to limited). Some tracks are more, how can I say this politely (I hope you track owners are listening), as*holish about the matter.

Since installing the Novak motor, it's been like a breath of fresh air. I can make it go really slow or really fast, I never wory about it, and it's always there, always working. It's the best RC purchase I have ever made. Plus it's crazy fast in umlimited mode. :)

[JimC]

Thanks all for your help. I'll make sure I update you all as I go. One last request. Any 'lessons learned' or helpful hints for putting a kit together? I haven't put one together in 15 years, but I hear they have improved their directions greatly(associated at least).

[racer234]

After reading through some of the previous posts, I think that they may be giving the wrong ideas. The first problem I have is that Mike01 is telling you to buy a fricken $230 charger, and then go for a cheap esc. I'd cheapen up on the charger, and put more money towards a good ESC. Also, you don't need a $200 radio, an MX-3 will be sufficient for 99% of people. If you're intent on getting a DC Charger, you can pick up a good power supply at promatch racing for only $40. I think you may be getting the impression that you need to spend a couple grand for all this stuff, which doesn't have to be the case. Somehow I manage to place consistently in the top 3 at my track, yet I don't own a nice charger, a nice radio, a standard servo, a 3 year old ESC, and THREE (count em, three) decent batteries. I run a sport 1500 in my mod truck for heats, and you know what? It works. I'm not bashing anyone here, just shedding light on the other side of the spectrum.

[Mike01]

I have to strongly disagree. Getting a cheap ESC will not hurt any of your equipment, and will last you a long time before you need to replace it (when you get THAT good that you notice the difference higher resistance and lower operating frequency gives you). When you do repalce it, you can just use it in something else. I still use the first ESC (Intellispeed 16T) I ever bought.

Getting a cheap charger, however, MAY (and probably will) ruin your equipment (batteries) which as I believe I mentioned, are expensive. I am not suggesting a 230 dollar charger...I am suggesting a 130 dollar charger as opposed to an 80 dollar charger. Yes, you will need a power supply for it (40-100 dollars), but you will need one eventually anyway when you get crazy about racing (everyone at my track eventually gets one).

As for radio, I agree. Any radio with adjustable rate, travel limiting and digital trims will do jsut fine.

Kit building tip...be careful about stripping plastic or graphite. If in doubt, don't tighten it any more.

[racer234]

Yes you did recommend a 230 dollar charger, 130 for the ICE, and 100 for a powersupply. And I think that saving up for a better ESC is more important than you're assuming.

PS- Why are you in love with the ICE charger, do you work for duratrax? :confused:

[Mike01]

Really? How? Will a better ESC make you go faster? That you can notice? Will a cheaper ESC cause damage to any of your equipment? If you're starting out racing, you're starting out stock racing, or you'd better invest in a hobby shop for all the replacement parts you will need. Any ESC can handle a stock motor and almost all will allow you to move up to spec mod (19T). A 50ESC will have a decent operating frequency, go down to 15 or 16 turns, have reverse (that can be shut off) and pretty good braking with some adjustability. I'm recommending a POS...just no need to go nuts. If you're racing outdoors with firehose as a track wall, then by all means go nuts and get a QC2 and a 7 turn single.

I am not in love with the ICE charger. I simply think it is the best charger for the money. Show me another charger than can charge at 8A, discharge at 10A store battery data and charge profiles, show charge and discharge graphs, can use a thermal probe to stop a charge based on battery temp and can charge Lithium batteries. I do not own an ICE. I have a Futaba CDR-5000 and a Great Planes Triton...there is nothing at stake for me in recommening it.

When you can show me a charger that can do all that, let alone one that costs anywhere near 130 bucks...then I'll stop recommending the ICE.

[highroller]

There really isn't nothing wrong with your charger selection except while the advertised rating is 6.5volts some AC/DC chargers have a tendancy to drop the actual output amperage by .05 to 1amp. Look at a few of the other brands of chargers like Integy 16x5v6, 16x7v6 and 16x9v6 each offer adjustablity and a discharge function (ideal for determining battery change or just discharging after using) the other is the Reedy Quasar and Quasar Pro each is going to be more costly but at least more than exceed your requirments for years to come.

Couple of other things you may need and most of these you can find out by asking racers at the track tires and what compound, gearing (get an assortment plus couple of spur gears), shock springs and shock oil (what weight), motor (what type do most use). How many heats are run, get enough packs for each heat with one good matched one and a couple of extra for practice. You can use the up to three times in a day but twice is generally about the norm given the time you need for charging and allowing pack to cool (1-3hr) before recharging. Generally for those starting out and needing to cut costs get the less expensive packs (matched sticks, loose cells or bulk quanity 12 or 24 count). for TC racing the high runtime/ volts cells probably isn't needed something in the 398 to 410 is more than enough with 1.15 to 1.16 voltage being sufficient for stock. As money and level of driving or interests in general increases then 1.17 voltage may be of some added benefit, also a better charger would come in handy that can charge cells (pack) at whatever level you desire. While the normal servo is adaquate for bashing a better servo is going to add to the cost depending on features but will provide enough power to move steering - while the weaker servo tend to stripe gears or not react fast enough. Those with ball bearings, coreless motors, metal gears each increase the torque, lowers transit spread and provde better torque. Something in the 64 ounce, 19sec transit area is ideal for 4wd TC (make sure that's at 6volts).

[JimC]

Thanks all. Glad I wasn't too far off initially. Here is my revised list based on your feedback...

-TC4 kit
-3 GP 3300 battery packs (side by side, at least 1.6v)
-Novak Dually ESC
-Trinity Monster Horsepower Stock Pro motor
-Airtronics MX-3 radio
-Integy Charger 16x...(I'll do some more research and grab one from Integy)
-INDI Zero-Equalizer Discharge tray

Looks like a nice Christmas list :)

[Piggy89373]

Jim, where are you at in MD? I'm up near Baltimore. I too am thinking about dabbling in on-road and racing up here at our lhs. If you're interested, drop me a line.

[Mike01]

JimC,

Good choices all around. Don't forget a power supply. The $40 from Promatch should be fine. However, it's very heavy, and you will need to lug it around. The $100 25A power supply from radio shack is very small and lightweight, and, of course, twice the power. New technology and all that...

Also, before I went brushless, I used to have the Monster horsepower stock. It wasn't too fast...it was easily pulled by Epic Binary motors. The "outlaw" kind, I believe they were. The speed difference was just nuts, and no gearing change I could make did anything.

[JimC]

Do most races consider the Epic Binary stock? It is listed as 27 turns, but I don't know the other requirements of the stock classes. If it is, I wouldn't mind buying one Epic and one Monster and run them. I'll probably have to check my local track to see what their requirements are for stock.

[JimC]

I think I was looking at the wrong epic the first time at tower. A couple have stock in their name. Didn't see these before. Anyone have experience with the Epic ROAR rebuildable?

[JimC]

I just re-read the Epic 2 Binary Outlaw Pro Stock. It says it meets 'most' ROAR specs, not all. I'll have to ask at my track. Looks like Epic ROAR stock has some of the same features, even says on Epics website, if you thought the Monster Horsepower was fast, wait till you try this. Cool.

[Mike01]

It's all about what your track allows, nothing more. My track lets you run Brushless in any class, with the appropriate settings. If your track does to, you should seriuosly consider a Novak SS5800. I love that motor.