Example: crystals, $30 a pair - no standard

[jeepinator]

Do you wanna know another reason this industry is stagnating ?

Crystals. Each manufacturer has their own "standard", they are $30 minimum for FM, not generally interchangeable, relatively fragile, and the technology exists to CHEAPLY make them obsolete.

But, noooooooooooooooo ... that would be to easy. They can make ESC's with an internal resistance of .0000000000000000000000000001 ohms, but we can't make radios and recievers without needing crystals ? I think we should have TUBES in our radios too ! Don't laugh, they were invented at the same time.

Good job Novak ! Now lower your price 30 bucks and I will buy 10. Who makes the synthesized radios ? Hitec and Profi ? Kudos to them. We want more !

BTW, Integy sells what seems like ALL brands of crystals for $18. Still $17 more than they cost to build, but better than a 3000% markup.

[ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: SteveP ]

[combones]

Sometimes it makes me want to chuff!
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/puke.gif

[outsider]

They could easily do what the lastest computers have been doing for the last couple years. have integrated circuits with multiple MHz settings. If you want to change to another, just turn a dial or hit a button. A LCD should display the frequency you're at.

[very low budget racer]

This post is messed up on my screen, is it like that for ne1 else? maybe its my rez, but I agree fully, I wanna get a Hitec Lynx 3d for this reason, but for 350 including the novak Rx and module, i cnat aafford it.

[jeepinator]

Hehe, thanks Steve. I was JUST going to edit it !
I hit "EDIT" and it was fixed ... weird timing

[SteveP]

Sorry Jeep, has to delete about 40 of your zeros - it wa dragging the thread about two pages wide... :D :cool:

[SteveP]

BTW - the crystal thing is an FCC reg.

[jeepinator]

What part of it is regulated ?

The price ?
The complete lack of a standard ?
The existance of crystals ?

I don't understand your comment :confused:

[SteveP]

Sorry, lemme explain. The FCC requires that radios on 75 mHz have a fixed frequency. That's why it's technically illegal to change to a different channel than that which was originally included in the radio. That's why on most radios that come into the US, there's some type of cover over the crystal. You don't see that on identical radios around the world. Don't ask me why only on 75 mHz, when 72 mHz radios can be fully synthesized. I think it's an antiquated and arbitrary rule that needs to be revisited, but that's another story.
The current rules require one part of the radio, transmitter or receiver, to have a fixed frequency (crystal). If you were to use a Lynx 3D radio with the spectrum module and a Novak XXtra receiver, you're technically in violation of FCC law as I understand it. I don't think we'll see the frequency police at the track any time soon, but it offers a little insight as to why there is no development of fully synthesized systems for the car market.

I also would like to have a better understanding why there are almost double the number of frequencies available for planes as there are cars. There's not a flying field I've ever seen that allows more than three or four planes in the air at a time, when tracks run upwards of 20 cars in a heat depending on the type of racing. Common sense dictates cars would have more channels available based on the potential for frequency conflict, but that's not the case. 60+ channels for three or four airplanes, and roughly 30 channels for up to 20 cars. Makes sense to me.... :rolleyes:
The AMA (airplane guys) are the ones that coordinate RC regulations with the FCC, and I flatly don't think the interests of the RC car market are well represented. I don't think they do it intentionally, but their lack of understanding of the car market and its changing needs is very evident. The AMA actually considered opening up 75 mHz to indoor and park flier planes - planes that can be flown anywhere. I almost jumped out of my pants when I heard that. Half the frequencies and now were going to open up those that were reserved for cars to MORE airplanes???!!! Thankfully it didn't happen, but that they would consider such a thing tells me they need more car blood in the system.

I share a lot of your frustration in the area of radios. They have come a long way since I got started, but there's still more room for improvement. It' getting late, so I'll appologize now if there are any glaring spelling errors or random senseless thoughts. I'll edit tomorrow. :D

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: SteveP ]

[jeepinator]

WOW !
See THIS is the kind of stuff we should see in RCCA, the paper edition.
This is REALLY good stuff. Thank you for posting, Steve !
Again (sorry for the broken record), publishing this type of info in your magazine and on your website can really go a long way to help this hobby (industry). I would like to see this type of info more often.
I know that when you have access to this info it does not seem like a big deal. You have been in your position a long time, so maybe it is especially true for you. But, for us, this is really big stuff.

CanI get a "RIGHT ON JEEP !" from anyone ?

Steve, can you direct us to a sanctioning body, or regulations office, so that we can voice our concerns ? I can be that "blood" you speak of. If we all gave .01% of our time we could get the antiquated rules changed.

[Grizzbob]

One other thing, another reason why I still love using KO radios is that crystals only cost me about $15-$20 per pair(& that's off the shelf at the LHS)....... :)

[SteveP]

Here's a couple links:

Academy of Model Aeronautics (http://www.modelaircraft.org)

Federal Communications Commission (http://www.fcc.gov)

And here's a read that's certainly a relief...

Click Here (http://www.modelaircraft.org/News/parkflyers.htm)

[SteveP]

Here's (http://www.fcc.gov/wtb/prs/radcntrl.html) another good read if you want the nitty gritty on FCC regs for R/C.

[bubblejunky]

Righto jeep!!

[mavrick0611]

HEEELLLLLLOOOOOOO VIIIEETTTTTNNNNAAAAAMMMM!

opps
RIGHT ON JEEP! :cool:
aj

[DerekB]

just a thought...

Do you use Ford parts on a Nissan?

27mhz crystals 99.99% of the time are universal.

Who cares how much companies make? That's why they are in business. If they sold it for how much it cost them they wouldn't be in business. Do you know how much your sneakers cost to make?

[outsider]

A 40MHz Crystal I bought 5 years ago for an electronics project: $2 at inflated RadioShack prices. Mouser electronics sells them for less than a dollar. A 75.358MHz crystal is no harder to make.

[HauntedMyst]

Every time I walk by the cystal section of my LHS, my pants itch...

[jeepinator]

Derek, I respectfuly completely disagree with your examples and points.

And, YES, I buy Michelin tires for both my Nissan and my Jeep. Why ? becasue there is a standard. Why is there a standard when it comes to tires ? Becasue they are consumable products that need replacing due to wear, or due to looks, usage needs, etc. Crystals fit in this category. I see your point, but this was a bad example. I also don't put Futaba triggers on my Airtronics radio (to peer up with your Ford and Nissan example).

I am concerned with profit because I, as a consumer, have that right. From a more logical perspective, I am simply uncomfortable with the fact that I am paying 1600% markup. My being uncomfortable leads me to not buy. When I don't buy, I become part of the force that leads companies to lower their cost. Lowering the cost makes me happy (especially when I see they have LOTS and LOTS of headroom to do so). Therefore I am concerned with how much money they are making.
Look, I am no college educated economist, financial advisor, or even well versed in business, but I know a raw deal when I see one. I want to pay less for stuff. I want to pay less for stuff even more if I know that there is some insane markup.
Why is everyone all bent to not care about prices ? Just because it is a hobby we are expected to not be concerned with such trivial matters as PRICE ?
In regards to my sneakers, I am fully aware of that scam as well. Paying some poor 10 year old almost nothing to work like a slave in crappy conditions to build Nike's. FWIW, I am wearing, right now, a pair of no name, run of the mill shoes I bought at an outlet store 3 years ago. This was the last pair of shoes I bought. They are comfy, still look good (are in good condition), and probably will last another year or so. The last pair of shoes I bought before that were some hiking boots made by Danner. I bought them at the factory, right here in Portland. They were built by well paid folks, hired by an honerable company that makes some of the best shoes on Earth for a great price. Those have lasted me 6 years so far and have WAY longer to go (I only wear them when I hike or go four wheeling).
Not spending 8 bazillion dollars on overpriced Nike's (also based out of Portland, Oregon) allows me to spend my money on overpriced crystals ! Nice tie in wouldn't you say ? :p

As a final note:
I feel kinda guilty for posting a few negative things about the RC industry. I have been unfair insofar as not also showing gratitude for what cool things we do have. I will keep this in mind with further posts. I think this may be you were really trying to say Derek ? If so, I agree 100%. The next thing I post will be something positive !

[mavrick0611]

another crystal price thing,

I can get 27mhz am traxxas crystals for $10, but the airtronics are $20! What gives?!?!?!

[HauntedMyst]

Next time you think about some kid working for slave labor prices....consider this. Without that income, many people in those parts of the world would have no income. Should they be treated better? YES! Do we have a right to impose our American thoughts about child labor else where? Not neccesarily.

[jeepinator]

Agreed. I did not want to dwell on the child labor thing, just use it as an example, I guess.

[HauntedMyst]

It's ok, I tangented again. I can't help it, I'm trying to find a 12 step program for it but there isn't one.

And btw, jeep, I personally don't mind your posts. I think the RC industry needs to read them. With computer software, we have help lines to fix problems and also listen to the customer to hear what they want. The RC industry don't typically have that. They have some 17 yr old with great driving skills and whose language is peppered with the words "dude" and "dialed" telling the industry what to make. Oh yeah, he gets all his stuff for free so he isn't worried about costs.)

Sorry, but his views and needs just don't reflect mine, or the general publics. He cares if his tires last one race, I care if mine last 2 to 3 months instead of the 2 race weekends they last right now.

He wants his speed control to give him .000000001 less on resistance, I just want mine not to melt when I plug the battery into it 30 seconds after the paultry 90 day warranty expires. I mean come on, it's controlling a toy car, not the Hubble Telescope, the warranty should run at least a year. Oh yeah, is it asking too much for the thing to have the on/off switch built into it without it being the size of a brick???

He wants his radio to handle everything from antilock breaks to 28 model memory, I just want 3 model memory and for it to turn my car when I ask it without glitching and sending my car into the pond. By the way, is it asking to much for the manufacturers to use 1, thats ONE type of connector? Sorry, but your propriatary connectors and horn mounts don't stop me from using your competitors servos or receivers, they just annoy me and make me pyssed off at the manufacturer.

I want the manufacturer to make money, I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is paying more for that product because they have a racing team of hundreds of racers, of which 4 or 5 actually make a difference and make a better car for you and me. It especially annoys me when those racers further inflate the price of things by making the manufacturers pay the price because said 17 yr old pinhead decideds to jump his rental car off a ramp and rips out the gas tank. (Yeah, we know about these things because some publication was stupid enough to print them month to month. Not RCCA) Oh yeah, lets not send these imbeciles over seas any more to represent us. Apparently almost none of them know how to act respectfully and our olympians already embarass us enough...

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: HauntedMyst ]

[Obi112]

We should impose our thoughts on child labor overseas. It's not only child labor, though. The biggest problem is the women (16-30 years old). The managers take advantage of them, beat them, and force them to work long hours and, in some cases, use toxic glue.

The worst part about this is that American companies are treating their workers this way! They knowingly setup factories in poor countries to maximize profits. And you are right HauntedMyst, without the big American companies there, most of the workers would have no income. But that certainly doesn't make it right.

[SteveP]

OK, this is really heading in the wrong direction... Lets try to get back on topic...

[KIWIRCGUY]

Its time for a outsiders opinion on this, well even if it aint its here anyway.

I knd of LOL when I hear people on here saying "man this costs blah blah" Here in New Zealand, I pay $18.20 and sometimes more for ONE #8 OS glo plug. I just bought some 1/10th scale HPI touring car tyres.. 2 pair of tyres and inserts and 1 pinion $90... My OB4 Pro $450.
I used to work at my LHS and know what mark up goes on these things, From 80 to over 300%
So before we all complain at the Novaks ETC. Lets all have a wee grizzle at the LHS guys!!
Also try to find other ways to buy smaller parts like screws etc. I go to a store here called General Machinery and get the screws for the head of my TGX for 10 cents each. Same as motor screws for my electric cars. $3.25 a packet of 20. OHH well Ild better go get a mortage, I need new batteries :D

[combones]

Keep these posts going. I think it is the only way some people will ever voice their opinions. If enough of us realize we are getting the shaft on too many r/c products, maybe threads like this will eventually make a difference. No need for a 1000% markup just because "it's a hobby".
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/smileysex2.gif

[mavrick0611]

combones, those little smilly faces just went a little too far...

[HauntedMyst]

Kiwi
80 to 300? I don't know what your LHS is charging but that certainly isn't the case in most american stores, I've seen their invoices. Two pairs of HPI tires and inserts here for for $80.00 so we're not that far off unless your talk about the inserts that come with the tires.

BTW, the way you figure mark up at retail is if something costs $50 and they sell it for $100 thats a 50% mark up.

[combones]

Haunted. A 50% markup on something you paid $50 for would be $75. 50% of $50 is $25. So $50(cost) with 50% markup = $75(retail). However, most retailers do what is callled "keystone" or "keystoning", which is a true 100% markup. You pay $50 wholesale for nike running shoes, you sell for $100. 100% of $50 is $50, hence the 100% markup or keystone. Manufacturers suggested retail price(msrp) for ftb3 is $369. Wholesale price is probably half that.
Is this smiley more pc?
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/person/rainfro.gif

[cjlandry]

I'm new at this RC stuff, but I'm no stranger to crazy price markups.

I like to upgrade and hot-rod old cars. I've been working on them since I was a kid. I really like bringing todays technology into yesterdays cars. This involves using a few relays, computer controls, electronics, and other things that aren't ordinarily found in those old cars.

Some aftermarket manufacturers have caught on and now sell relay kits with instructions for $30. I get the same parts from Radio Shack for $5.

The real question here is whether or not we can get these things from the manufacturer or wholesaler rather than the retailer.

I agree with what's been said about the crystals being consumables. There should be a standard and they should be less expensive.

BTW, I use a Ford solenoid and a Lincoln Mark VIII electric fan on my '68 El Camino. So I don't mind using what works best, no matter who makes it. I have no use for a Nissan, but if I had one I would use a Ford part on it if it were an improvement.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: cjlandry ]

[GT burner]

Hey DerekB, do you have any stance at all against the rc industry? There has to be something you don't like or want changed. From what I have read, you always defend the companies such as in the proline tires debate. Do you staffers get all your stuff free from those companies and you have to "take care of them." Can you write everything off as an expence? Just curious.

[DerekB]

GT Burner,

Any hobby I have (paintball, RC, Basketball) I hardly complain about what prices there are. Companies are in business to make money. If I can't afford a hobby I don't do it. I would like to have a few more hobbies, but my funds don't allow me. In RC there are many levels of affordablity, if you can't buy the latest and greatest thing there is always last years model. I had a paper route when I was 12 and saved every penny til I got what I wanted and needed for my cars. And when I look back I paid teh same or more for some of the things today. Do I have things I would change, YES. Is it that the companies make less money and go out of business, NO.

[nitrovig]

in lieu of crystals....when is the price of CD's going to come down!!! i think it's a conspiracy!! :mad:

[jeepinator]

another thought ...
IF there was some sort of standard (platform sharing) for crystals, the price would go down for consumers because competition would be stiff. Nobody would go out of business because of this ! But, we would get crystals for 5 bucks. Just think, the manufactureres of these crystals are making 10 types for all the radio companies out there. Each of their customers get the "low volume" discount. If they were to all buy collectively (some thing that is common in standardized business models (computer industry)), they would et BIG discounts, and becuase there is competition, the discount would be passed to us.

My main desire is for interoperability, standardization, protocol, whatever you want to call it. Not a bunch of half cocked money grubbers intentionaly building proprietary systems out of fear.
I applaud Airtronics for finally conforming to the norm in regards to servo plugs ! Sure, they gave it a spin and called it "Z" or whatever, but hey, now there is just one pin out. This helps alot, don't you agree ?

[HumbleEagle487]

Hey how much do u pay for cds anyways? I buy all my cd's from a store called Best Buy and they have the greatest prices. The highest I've paid for a single cd from them was 12.99. Heck I bought my Monty Python 2 cd set for 12.99 cause its an older cd. But if u goto the Virgin records superstore in NYC cd's are almost 20 bucks! Oh and about the cystals thing, I say we start a petition to have a separted comitty for rc cars that would dicuss the frequencies that we need with the FCC. Also I can see y the Airplane guys want alot of frequencies so they can have then be separated, but they don't need, like, what 50? Wow that's alot of typing for me.

[cjlandry]

BlackWolf, that's exactly the sort of information that I'm looking for!

"Plug-n-play" is nice, but when some minor modifications can save me a significant amount of money, I'm all for it.

Now, where do I get an MCM catalog? (I'm about to search now.)

OK, I found them. Do you have any part numbers for those crystals to get me started?

Thanks!

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: cjlandry ]

[Car_Head12]

good discussion, thought i would add a point

As long as we (the consumers) continue to pay high prices the retailers will raise the prices for more profit

[BlackWolf]

cjlandry Said: BlackWolf, that's exactly the sort of information that I'm looking for!
"Plug-n-play" is nice, but when some minor modifications can save me a significant amount of money, I'm all for it.
Now, where do I get an MCM catalog? (I'm about to search now.)
OK, I found them. Do you have any part numbers for those crystals to get me started?


Give MCM electronics a call, and let them know it's for a Radio Controlled Car, and you think there is a 'split' between the TX and thr RC frequency **meaning there is a definate transmit and recive crystal. See if they have the frequencies in stock. You have wo also worry about the thickness of the pins on the XTAL itslef (it might be too thick to go in the socket, or it may bend when you push it in.

**When I Look at the 75MHz RC xtals side by side, they looked the same. I've put reciver xtals in the transmitter, and vice-versa, and had NO problems at all.

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: BlackWolf ]

[BlackWolf]

Another great place to find electronics x-tals is here:

www.meci.com (http://www.meci.com)

[BlackWolf]

HEY

Whats to stop you from ordering xtals out of an MCM electronics catalouge. The have all frequencies, and a channel 76 (75.xxx) meg xtal costs $3.00. I've use a transmit xtal in a reciver and a reciver xtal in a transmitter, and have never had a problem!

the pins on the xtal were a little thin, so you have to be carefull when inserting them..

[Josh00]

crystals are 3o bux a pair....Funny i have never bought any and never looked at the price on them cause when i got into r/c my dad had like 6 pairs and so i alwyas used those lol i didnt realize i had 180$ worth of crytals....

[ILv2Xlr8]

Sorry I'm going to resurect this thread, but it is a burning issue for a lot of us still.
Anyone else had any experience using the $3 crystals in their expensive radios?
I am not aware of Multiplex producing a frequency synthesizer for their Profi car radios; however I am only aware of their US and English web site, and I can't read german, so I don't go there. I've always been interested in the Profi radio's, but since no one here has one yet, I'm holding off to get one. If you know of any other places for info on this radio, let us know.

As far as 75MHz goes, it rumored that Futaba radios such as the 3PJ, 3PJS, 3PJFS...? will work with the Spectrum Frequency Systhesizer Module. Can anyone confirm this?

Originally posted by SteveP
...The FCC requires that radios on 75 mHz have a fixed frequency. That's why it's technically illegal to change to a different channel than that which was originally included in the radio. That's why on most radios that come into the US, there's some type of cover over the crystal. You don't see that on identical radios around the world. Don't ask me why only on 75 mHz, when 72 mHz radios can be fully synthesized. I think it's an antiquated and arbitrary rule that needs to be revisited, but that's another story.
The current rules require one part of the radio, transmitter or receiver, to have a fixed frequency (crystal). If you were to use a Lynx 3D radio with the spectrum module and a Novak XXtra receiver, you're technically in violation of FCC law as I understand it. I don't think we'll see the frequency police at the track any time soon, but it offers a little insight as to why there is no development of fully synthesized systems for the car market. ...
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: SteveP ]

Steve, Your interpretation of the FCC rule is correct, however it has not been determined to the best of my knowledge what extent the rule is being enforced. It basically can't be enforced by the way it was written many years ago. The "technical" wording of the rule is that no crystals may be interchanged for any other than what were originally provided in a Transmiter or Transciever.
The reasoning behind the way is was written is, as I understand the history of it, was to prevent some of the 11 meter band radio users from adding upper and lower sideband crystals to their common cb radios, remove the clipping diode, and this could allow them to increase the power and allow them to talk a long way.

In the case of our hobby radios, I agree we won't see any radio police at our RC track as I don't think the output of our radios are powerfull enough to make a difference. However, I'm sure you'll be glad to know that our tax dollars are paying for some geeks sitting in vans all around our cities watching spectrum analyzers for illegal transmissions. I unfortunately know this for a fact that the FCC does monitor transmissions where they're not supposed to be, and It's kinda a funny how I discovered this fact...

I used to work in a lab at a University that had some RF equipment, and as a joke, we remodulated a gospel station to the local FM country station frequency through a 200 W amp. The lab tech next door who always listened to that country station was confused for three days wondering why he could not tune in his radio station, and got nothing but gospel music.

The joke was cut short when the FCC pinpointed the location of the transmission, called my department and determined which lab had what equipment, and called my lab and instructed us to cease transmissions immediately, we BS'ed our way out of trouble by explaining that were were doing some fancy test, and they let us go warning us we could be fined $10,000, but since it was from a state funded university and an honest mistake for the sake of education, they would let us slide.

How was I to know the FCC hated gospel music that much?

:p