Would there be a market for...?

[bigmike216]

Would there be a market for a 12th scale, 4WD nitro? Most all aluminium, and offered RTR, and in kit form?

[lerningdriver]

depends how it performs.

[KTRTS]

Don't want to put you down, but there's probably not :(

a) Since it is 1/12th, it is too small to run outdoors (I'm presuming it's on-road), and since it's nitro it can't be run indoors, which rules out bashing.
b) There isn't a class for it (yet).
c) There is only one model. For bashing, one type of model by one manufacturer is fine, but to race with, you generally need (or at least, people WANT) more than one choice of car in a category).

So it would be very difficult to find a place to bash and/ or race with it.

[Fluke]

I don't agree with (b)&(c)

The hpi micro RS4 was the only of his kind but after sometimes aftermarket parts were made and a class was made.

[KTRTS]

Yes, but that can be run indoors, so lots of people bought them. Some would enevitably want to race them, and so a class was made :)

[sportmaxxracer]

the new xray t1 mini uses 1/10 scale tires so it'll handel the bumps. You can't fit a .12 in it so it will have to have a specially made engine and that means only one engine so it would loose sales mabey. I don't think it would work but you never know

[sportmaxxracer]

* one engine made for it

[bigmike216]

Well i've been designing up one for myself lately, And i will be CNC milling it in a few months.. I just figured if people wanted them i'd put them up on ebay :) There is enough room for a .12 or .15 in there :) I've always wanted a nitro 12th scale, but by the time i could afford one, the HPI nitro mini was out of production.

[Race123]

Do it! For the cool factor alone, it's worth a try :cool: And who knows, maybe you'll generate some interest from other racers. Keep us posted!

[bigmike216]

I'll do it :) but just for myself for now. :)

[henry_huckem]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[aerosaaber]

Well if you go by the law of averages. At least a small number of other guys would be interested. You can't be the ONLY guy who has thought of this, perhaps only the first yo make it yourself and offer to produce them.

I'm broke otherwise I'd prolly be interested in a small on road bash vehicle.

[lerningdriver]

I'll do it :) but just for myself for now. :)

mind telling us more about it?

[bigmike216]

Cool :) wonder who else would be interested?

I've started doing my CAD drawings.. maybe i'll post some in a few days :)

[bigmike216]

mind telling us more about it?


Sure.

I'll be CNC machining as much of it as i can out of aluminum, I will have CNC capabilities at home by the end of the month. It'll be belt drive (simpler for now) 4WD, 4 wheel independent suspension. .12 or .15 engine (whatever i have a spare of at the time for testing) and single speed tranny for now. Might add a two speed at a later point, or when i first design it, depending on cost, and availability of a two speed that i can make work.

[lerningdriver]

what kind of shafts? cvd's? your gonna machine them yourself? cuz I'd make sure you build them tough so you can drop a big block in there to move around that pile of aluminum... sounds like it's gonna be heavy. which chassis design will you use? double deck? single? tvp's? (i doubt) ... umm... pivot ball suspension?

[bigmike216]

haven't decided on the shafts yet. A big block? I'd rather have it somewhat controllable :) It shouldn't be too heavy.. it'll be smaller than a normal touring car.. Going for a chassis and upper deck config, chassis wise.

[lerningdriver]

cool, I look forward to seeing your work :)

[Fluke]

Continue like that and we'll soon see a 1/18th nitro mt

[Sparkey_STi]

Sorry fluke... theres been a fluke in your plan :). Nitro Mini-T. Iv seen about 5. As for kit, theres a conversion kit on e-bay, but thats about it.

Also, 1/12th scale is bigger then 1/18th am i right? I run my MRS4 (1/18th scale) and my Mini-T (1/18th scale) outside just on any street that is fairly smooth. i run my MRS4 wherever anyone would run there TC3, Pro 4, Ect.

Also, in your desription of it all you said was Nitro 4WD. First thing i thought of was Buggy... but now i think you mean sedan. Cool, just not as cool as a buggy, nor ambitious. OR have my dreams come true and you accually was meaning Buggy?

[bigmike216]

Not buggy, sedan. I'm an onroad guy :)

[lerningdriver]

comon now, back to work mike, I wanna c this thing finished :p

[bigmike216]

haha, you soun like my english 12 teacher! :p

[lerningdriver]

noooooooooo... lol

[KTRTS]

I would to see how this pregresses, sounds like a cool project :)

[dog8spam]

.12 in a 1/12 would be FAST. You could do an insane speed car.

[bigmike216]

Well, i'm going to buy an RS4 2 to use for ideas, and tranny parts ideas. I've had one before, so i've got some ideas in my head.. I'll be waiting until i get it to do any major CAD drawings.

[Fluke]

Come on,make a small toy car that'll smoke those nitro guys :p

[bigmike216]

Toy car? pssh. :P

[dog8spam]

I would put no aluminum in the car, it wears out, weighs alot, and is expensive. Go with plastic or ABS and outsource the parts. Once the dies are made parts can be made for less than $1. Aluminum will have to be machined, even if you want to do it yourself it is very hard to acuratly and cheaply devise a way to machine multiple sides. If you still want to machine parts yourself ABS can be cut on a CNC machine, I can give you the feed rates and speeds if you want.

Also use parts like gears, turnbuckles, and carriers, from existing cars if possible, once you find a supplier or distributer that can supply you parts it will be very cheap. You wont have to desighn, machine, or make dies for parts you buy.

Putting a nitro engine in a narrow car (compared to other 1/10 cars) will be a problem. I would lay the engine down so it sits horizontally not vertically, otherwise it would roll at even slight speeds. The carburator would still work along with fuel delivery and the engine would still get air because engines are made to suck air in. It may run a couple degrees hotter, but not enough to make much of a difference.

If it was me, I would scrap that idea of making it 4wd, a 1/12 car is much too small to fit all that in and would be very crowded and complex. I wouldnt even put in a tranny at all, just go direct drive. It will never handle as well as electrics so dont even bother trying to make it, most likely it wont sell as a racer, but as a basher. Direct drive is very fast and simple, a neccisity for bashing. It also makes the front end much simpler since it only will have to steer.

Ive got to go, I like your idea and I have lots more suggestions if you want them. I have almost unlimited access to a CNC machine set up to cut carbon fiber or G10 and can also machine plastics. Right now I am working on my own monster truck that I wont go into the details here about. E-mail me at dog8spam@yahoo.com if you want to talk more.

Last thing go to www.mcmaster.com its the best industrial supplier I know of, very low prices, carries over 400,000 items, and ships to Kentucky next day for standard shipping, even after 5:30 PM.

[bigmike216]

The aluminium wont be expensive, as i've got a ton of it, for free. If you've read the previous posts, you'd see that the machining it accurately wont be a big problem, as I will have a CNC mill at home. This mill will have 4 axises. Perfectly capable of doing 3d work :) Thanks for your input, telling me to scrap the idea, i'm choosing not to listen to it. I'm not planning to market it at first, just going to make one for myself, and a couple of locals from my r/c club. I wouldnt be ordering plastics online, especialls from an american company. I'm in canada, and have a huge plastics warehouse within a half hour drive. I wont need you feed rates, as chances are we wont be using the same spindle motors, or same diameter end mills. Thanks for the input though. :)

[lerningdriver]

dog- thank you for your suggestions, but i think mike can manage. he's perfectly capable of producing a high performing 1/12 scale 4wd car including designing it's turnbuckles and carriers. telling him he won't be able to do it is a great way to reduce motivation, so if you can't say something positive, don't say anything at all :cool:

[bigmike216]

hehe, thanks for that learning driver!! :cool:

[lerningdriver]

you deserve it buddy :)

[bigmike216]

hehe, thanks dude :D

Well, Today, i bought some acrylic to prototype with.. Just need an RS4 or RS4 2 roller :) Hopefully i find one in the next couple of days. I'm finished with school next friday, so i'll have alot more time to devote to my project :)

[lerningdriver]

what's your budget for one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44015&item=5902712717&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44015&item=5902819236&rd=1

[bigmike216]

about $80 for a roller.. no engine, pipe, or radio gear :) Shouldnt be too hard to find one for that.

[bigmike216]

I am working out a deal with a local racer for an rs4 3 roller for $100 canadian, right now! :D Looks like i'll be going shaft drive.

[lerningdriver]

nice!.. keep us updated :)

[bigmike216]

ofcourse!

I have an rs 3 here already, so i'm thinking i'll start some drawings tonight, and try and work out a layout.

[bigmike216]

Well, after about an hour and a half of CAD, I now have a chassis design. I've added some objects to the chassis, such as tires, engine, center bulkhead, and fuel tank, so you can see where they're going to go.

[lerningdriver]

nice layout, next step a-arms/driveshafts?

[bigmike216]

Next step is A-Arms.

Man, i was thinking of calling it a night, but you're motivating me! :)

[bigmike216]

Arms are done. I'm going with a hingepin suspension.

I fdged up the width in my first CAD drawing.. but it's fixed now :)

Time for a break.

[KTRTS]

^^Nice design dude, lookin' cool :cool:
Just one question, how will the shocks be mounted; I think it would be awkward (sp?) to mount them on a diagonal? :)

[lerningdriver]

umm... I got one thing for you mike.. steering... the wheels won't be able to move with the way you designed it. try to smooth out the chassis on the front abit and clear some space.

great job so far though! :D

[bigmike216]

Man, that's what I get for trying to design while uber tired! :D I also put my front arms on backwards.. hahhah. Time to fix my stupid tired mistakes. Thanks for pointing that out!

[bigmike216]

Fixed :)

That little crosshair is my cursor in autocad.. forgot to move it out of the way before mking the picture :)

[KTRTS]

So it's goin to be shaft drive now?

[bigmike216]

Yep, And i'll be making my own shafts.

[KTRTS]

Will you be using diffs from another car?

Btw I still think it will be awkward to mount the rear shocks ;)

[bigmike216]

yeah, i'm aware of the rear shock problem, i realized that last night before i went to bed :) I'll be adding a flat spot to mount the shocks like i did with the front arms, but i'm hungry, so i'm going to have lunch now! :) Yes, i will be using diffs from another car. I've got an rs4 3 roller secured for $100 canadian, so i'll use some parts from that. Anything i dont use from the rs4 3 for my 12th scale, will be spare parts for my other rs4 3 :)

[andrew23mj]

Anyone who decides to try to make their car I give a ton of credit to. It can't be easy especially since it sounds like you have decided to make everything yourself. Keep up the good work Mike and keep all of us posted as to how it goes.

[lerningdriver]

Man, that's what I get for trying to design while uber tired! :D I also put my front arms on backwards.. hahhah. Time to fix my stupid tired mistakes. Thanks for pointing that out!

man, don't give me that :p , you know i'm not trying to dis ya or your work, and like andrew said, it takes a man to make your own car :)

[bigmike216]

hehe, wasnt saying you were! :) I've updated my rear arms, and fixed the rear of the chassis so it wont limit travel of the rear arms. :)

[KTRTS]

Can we see? :D

[bigmike216]

Sure :D

[KTRTS]

NICE!!!!!!!! :cool:

The fuel tank is smaller than the engine! :D (I know, I know ;) )

though that's got me thinking; would you be able to make your own fuel tank?

[bigmike216]

I could cnc machine a mold, and blow mold the tank, but i'm not going to, i'll just be using the HPI nitro 3 tank.

[KTRTS]

i was thinking, you could make a tank with an archway for the shaft, cos with the side mounted tank, as you lose fuel (and therefore weight) it will unbalance the car.

I think its to much hassle though :)

[bigmike216]

that's a cool idea:) If i were to do that, i'd want to move the engine more to the center also, which I can't do with my driveline. I'll just stick with the HPI tank for now, it'll work :)

[KTRTS]

Yeah, the engine would be a problem :(

Will you be doing any 3-D designs?

[bigmike216]

The only parts i need to do 3d CAD for is the ones tat are going to be 3d. All the parts i've done so far are just set to the cutting depth in my cnc software. I will start acrylic prototype pieces soon.

[KTRTS]

Cool :cool:

What shocks will you be using?

[bigmike216]

Just some 10th scale plastic bodied shocks.

[lerningdriver]

umm.. where will the servo's battery and receiver sit?

[bigmike216]

I was working on that already, and came to post my results.. and you've already thought of it! :) I've had to do some juggling around of the fuel tank, and the engine and center bulkhead are now moved backwards by 3mm. The steering servo will be mounted to the upperdeck, vertically, servo horn / saver facing down. Throttle servo mounted to the upperdeck like you'd expect. Rx pack is between the chassis and upperdeck, and the receiver being on top of the deck directly above the rx pack.

[dog8spam]

Didnt mean to insult ya there, I assumed you were a kid. Looks good so far.
If you can make all your own parts could you make this
http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467672#post1467672

[bigmike216]

I could make it, but you'd be better off getting someone in your country to make it, cost wise ;) .59375 from the threaded end? I'm only accurate to .002 :) Oh, i guess you could say that I am a kid really, I'm 17.. Just "well informed." :)

[lerningdriver]

lol, well informed indeed, good job on that auto cad stuff.. looks great!.. will you be making a side view of the chassis to further visualize the double deck chassis and position of things?

[bigmike216]

I'm going to mill the acrylic prototype chassis and arms first, and start attaching things to the chassis. Then i will design the upper deck when i've got the chassis finalized.. gives me something physical to take measurements off of.

[KTRTS]

Hmm, the 4 screws for the rear diff housign aren't inline with the a-arms, so the CVDs/ bones will be at a steep angle to connect with the wheels. I'm sure the screws hole are just rough, but I thought I'd point it out :)

[lerningdriver]

ignore ktrts mike, he's just giving ya a hard time :p ... but anyway.. next step is puttin the diffs on there?

[KTRTS]

^^^ :p

[bigmike216]

hehe, you guys.. :p

I'm planning on milling up the acrylic prototype chassis today.. but right now it's F1 time!

[KTRTS]

Yeah, race starts in 15 minutes :cool:

I've been waiting all day for you to update :D

[bigmike216]

hehe, it was the first thing i did when i rolled out of bed! :D

[lerningdriver]

i dunno about you guys but F1 is much better then nascar in my opinion... I just don't see the point of going in circles like that.

[bigmike216]

I agree.

[KTRTS]

i dunno about you guys but F1 is much better then nascar in my opinion... I just don't see the point of going in circles like that.

Yep... :D

Shame the REnaults had to finish early, they would have made the race way more interesting :(

[bigmike216]

Ferrarri fan here :)

although the renaults have had an impressive season so fas, as wel as Button, with BAR.

I've just been called into work, so i'm hoping i get home early enough to mill out the prototype chassis :)

[bigmike216]

Home from work.. Guess the acrylic is going to have to wait until tomorrow.

[lerningdriver]

bummer.. i was looking forward to seeing them.. oh well.. one more day :rolleyes:

[bigmike216]

hehe, yep, you'll have to wait. :p

[crank throw wei]

I like this idea Mike! Can I ask a few questions?

What kind of cnc do you have? I've been wanting one for a few years,but the one I want cost about 10 grand USD. Servo or steppers,with or with out encoders?

Which CAD program are you using?

And finally,wil you be making your own body too,or an off-the-shelf one?

Keep on keepin' on dude!

[bigmike216]

I like this idea Mike! Can I ask a few questions?



I believe you're going to regardless of what i answer to this one. :D :p



What kind of cnc do you have? I've been wanting one for a few years,but the one I want cost about 10 grand USD. Servo or steppers,with or with out encoders?


It is a non cnc mini mill that i bought at a local used tool sale and i did my own CNC conversion. Using steppers, and i made my own stepper driver board. No encoders, just step / direction signals from the parallel port.


Which CAD program are you using?


AutoCAD 2002.



And finally,wil you be making your own body too,or an off-the-shelf one?


For now, off the shelf. I have got access to a vac former big enough for 10th scale bodies though, so maybe i'll do a body in the future :)


Keep on keepin' on dude!

Will do! :D

[lerningdriver]

how did you convert it if it wasen't cnc?

[bigmike216]

stepper motors, and new leadscrews / nuts on all 3 axises.

[lerningdriver]

wow, that was a fast reply, how'd you make the board for it? or did you buy one?

[crank throw wei]

Wow Mike,you could start a whole thread on your conversion.Feel free to to bore us to death with all the details,because I'd be very interested.

[bigmike216]

not very complicated really, the actual conversion of the mill is the easy part :) The software is another issue.

To convert the mill you just need to dis assemble, and remove the hand cranks, lead screws, and nuts. then you just replace them with finer pitch ones, so that you get more accuracy. you get this accuracy at a sacrifice of speed though. then you grab some couplers, and make some mounts for your stepper motors.. then connect the stepper motor to the leadscrew. There are plenty of schematics for stepper drivers on the net, or you can buy them too. My conversion was done for a school project. got 2 courses for it! got drafting 12, and technology 12 :)

[KTRTS]

Yeah.










:D
So have you started on the wishbones/ chassis yet? :)

[lerningdriver]

no pationce man, no pationce.. lol ... how do you spell that n/e way? :p

[bigmike216]

No patience at all! :D

You'll notice a chunk out of the plastic chassis by the batteries.. I dropped it and it cracked :) ah well, it's only the "proof of concept!" :)

[bigmike216]

Wow, that acrylic is brittle. Snapped the front end off already :) Ah well, aluminum chassis tomorrow.

Oh, and it's patience. :D

[lerningdriver]

w/e patience.. you know what I ment :p

looks good so far! but just so you know, i'm waking up at 9 in the morning tommorow and this thing better be done by then :p

[bigmike216]

hehe, patience, young one. :p If you wake up with those expectations, you're going to be disappointed :p I've got school til 3pm.. them i'll mill the aluminum. Only 4 more day's of school...

[lerningdriver]

can't blame me for trying :D

btw: finished school like 2 weeks ago.

[bigmike216]

Yeah well, no more hishschool after theese 4 days.

[KTRTS]

^^^^ I got 4 and a half weeks til I break up :(


Nice, an alu chassis would be so cool :cool: :D

[bigmike216]

4 and a half weeks? yikes. :p

Yeah, chassis should turn out well, i'll do it up tomorrow afternoon.

[KTRTS]

^^:p

Come on man, do i today! :D I can't wait till tomorrow :p

[dog8spam]

About how much did the CNC machine cost? I have a couple classes next year where I was considering building my own CNC mill, but didnt know about the cost.

[bigmike216]

The cnc Conversion cost me a total of $500 canadian.

I did the chassis :) Here it is.

Mre postuires.. posting them now.

[bigmike216]

Some bits added :)

[bigmike216]

Almost everything else resting on the chassis to show placement. The bellcranks arent on there, cause i couldnt get the oto stand up by themselves :)

[bigmike216]

Last one. :D

[lerningdriver]

about time mike.. and geez man, clean up your keyboard :p

[lerningdriver]

naa, i'm kiddin with you man, looks great! i cant wait to see the final product :)

[bigmike216]

Keyboard is dirty from all the r/c stuff done at this desk ;) :p

[crank throw wei]

Let's see your CNC!

[KTRTS]

Mike, lookin' hot! :D

[C.J.OO]

Even though its a .15fe that things gonna be a pocket rocket..I wanna see somthing run rings around the mini-ts..lol..

[lerningdriver]

Mike, lookin' hot! :D

I don't even wanna know what your thinkin :p

mike.. when you come from school, mind filling cranks request? i'd love to c it too :cool:

[bigmike216]

I'd love to.. but my brother just took his camera :p He's gone camping.

[bigmike216]

I've milled the upper deck today.. It's really comming together! Sorry I can't have a picture, it'll have to wait until my brother get's home, or i can get a friend to snap one for me.

[KTRTS]

Any more progress? :) :D

[bigmike216]

I didn't get a chance to work on it yesterday, we have big windstorm, and massive power outage.. the whole city was out for 8 hours.

[powerstroke01]

I think a 1/10 nitro buggy would be cool!

[C.J.OO]

Thev got em^^^kyosho .15 inferno,the winner 1/10 buggy and so on..
Mike Im keen to see some more photos with the upper deck on..

[bigmike216]

I'm heading out tonight with a friend, I'll take the car along and see about getting a pic or two.

[lerningdriver]

I didn't get a chance to work on it yesterday, we have big windstorm, and massive power outage.. the whole city was out for 8 hours.

errr... if you have a power outage.. how are you on the comp :p

but n/e way.. i'm waitin for updates :cool:

[format13]

my uncle has a mill (not sure if its cnc), how hard would it be to draw out my own plans? and where could i buy materials?

[bigmike216]

Latest update:
Nothing. Been working on one of my other hobbies this week, which is designing and building speakers. I'll get back on this project really soon, i promise ;)

format:
It depends how good you are at drawing plans! If you're doing CNC, your CAD drawings need to be prefectly measured. You can buy materials at any local metal supply shop.. search in the yellow pages.

[format13]

ok, cool, ill check that out, thanks

[bigmike216]

Bodyshell came in the mail today.

It's a tamiya Rover mini cooper.

I'll paint it soon :-)

[bigmike216]

It's for the M chassis, and will fit quite nicely on my 12th scale project :)

[C.J.OO]

How did you get this thread from their to here.?.
I thought this was an "OT" thread..maybe Im wrong..??????...*shrugs shoulders*

[bigmike216]

Nope, was never in OT.

[KTRTS]

Figit's Radioshack project was in OT ;)

[crank throw wei]

OK,apparently you got the cam back.Let's see the CNC! :)

[bigmike216]

Almost ready to take it out for it's first drive. Just waiting for my glow plug warmer and rx pack to charge.

http://www3.telus.net/public/bigmike2/100_1534.JPG

http://www3.telus.net/public/bigmike2/100_1535.JPG

http://www3.telus.net/public/bigmike2/100_1536.JPG

those are 10th scale tires and wheels.. the right sized ones are on their way.

[lerningdriver]

^^ wow mike about time.. lol, I haven't looked at this thread in ages :)

*cough* tape it *cough*

:D

EDIT: wait a sec.. didn't you say it was all gonna be aluminum? ... and also, how long is it?.. looks really short in the pics?

[microrcdude]

Nice! cant wait to see the body mounted!