Bigger JAR

[Sr71fan]

Span 23.5, Length 28.5 inches, GWS 370 "D" drive, GWS Micro RX, Cirrus CS-21 servos on elevons, Hitec HS-50 on rudder. All-up weight is 10.6 ounces with two 1200 E-TECs. Hovers! This stuff just keeps getting more fiun every day. :D My photo.

Gary

[CalmAir]

Hi Gary,

Hey the JAR grows up! Love the little marking details.

Okay, whats the scoop? Do you use anything to strengthen the wing? How do you think it would perform with a 300 "C" drive with a 10x8? If you can hover, I presume it has a rudder and elevons?

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

It will be faster with a C and 10/8. May or may not hover. Try it and see. :) I'm running a 12/6, and will switch to a 13/6.5 when I can find one.

I cut a slot in the wing running 3/4 of the span at the CG, and epoxied a 1/8 diameter CF tube into it to stiffen it.

Here's another shot I took while flying. The pilot needs to be replaced as soon as I get another cartridge for my color printer.

Have fun!

Gary

[CalmAir]

Okay,

Are you only running elevons? How wide are they? I may just give that a try with all of this blu cor around here. I'm guessing that CG is around 6"?

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Each elevon spans 10.25 inches and has a chord of six inches. The rudder is on top and bottom, totalling 13.5 inches tall with a chord of 3.5 inches.

Here's another picture...

Gary

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

The CG is 7.5 inches back from the front of the wing.

May as well throw in another picture while I'm here. :D

Gary

[CalmAir]

Thanks for the details Gary. I may do some foam hacking tomarrow. Man, your photos are always cool. Are you sure thats not a professional camera?

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

You've thrown me for a loop (no pun). I don't know what a "professional" camera is. It might be, considering what I had to pay for it. Thanks for your comments. Glad you like the pictures.

I yours flies as good as this one, you'll be AWFULLY glad you built it! :D I'm just amazed how well it does. Heck, I haven't even CRASHED it yet... that's how good it is. :eek:

Here's one more, for good measure...

Gary

[CalmAir]

Another good angle to view it from:D

I have a 300C here and was actually planning a different model with the foam, but since you posted this larger version of the JAR, I'll be a copy cat and give it a try.

Doing some figuring right now. I don't have a couple of lipoly packs and the NiMh pack that I have is 3.5 ounces, so I will come in heavier. I need to mount the pack so that the roll balance is not way off. My LHS carries carbon fiber, but it's behind the counter and I have not seen what they have yet.

I guess it floats in easy enough that the lower rudder is not damaged during a landing?

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

It'll handle the weight of your NiMHs. I wouldn't worry too much about roll balance. The elevons are VERY effective.

All my landings so far have been in my hand, but you're right, it comes in VERY slow with a little power and the nose high.

You're gonna LOVE it!

Here's a simple drawing I did for the little one. I hope it'll help you get started. You can put your motor stick anywhere, but I cut a notch in the lower fuselage for mine. I think the drawing shows it on one side.

For the radius of the front semi-cirle, just use half your span, whatever that might be. The small one also had 6 inch chord elevons, and it rolls faster than I can think (most folks say that's not very fast). :D They are plenty big enough for the larger one, also.

Have fun!

Gary

[Sr71fan]

Here are the two JARS together, lighted from the back to show the spar in the big one.

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

I lied to you before! The spar is not located at the CG. It is at one radius back.

Here is the same picture with front light (flash).

Happy flying!

Gary

[t-turley]

Gary,

That "under the shelter" shot looks as if you are flying through inverted, although I know it's just the shape of the underside.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Thanks much Gary,

The drawing and those shots help a lot, especially with the equip location. My son built one of those pizza box thingamabobs and did a test flight. He said his elevons were not large enough, so he made some with 6" chords. That ought to do it. He is out of town, so maybe I can build this one up before he gets to try another flight:p

Okay on the spar. Got to go to the LHS before they close today. I'll keep you posted with the construction.

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Tony,

It ain't gonna work, man. You're NOT going to talk me into flying through there inverted! :p Geeze, and I used to like you...:mad: :D

Dale,

I'm anxious to see it.

Gary

[CalmAir]

Okay Gary,

Don't laugh too hard! My off hand drawing leaves a lot to be desired. Not sure if my fuse is an airplane or a pregnant guppy.:D

The pieces are cut and the control surfaces are hinged. Need to cut the clearance notches in the elevons. The wife is off to Wal-Mart, told her to pick me up some paint sticks while she's there hee hee...

I'm not sure if you are swinging top and bottom rudders, but I made it that way. I used your dimensions. Picture makes everything look crooked, but there not.

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

Me? Laugh? No way! I think it looks dang good. I've seen one something like that before. :D Yes, mine has rudder on top and bottom. OK, now I'm waiting for first flight reports. :D

Gary

[CalmAir]

Did you remove the clear backing on the fuse and one side of the wing? It's the only way the paint markers are going to work.

Dale

[t-turley]

Gary,

Have you tried flying JAR with just elevons, and no rudder? Or with just rudder and elevator, with no mixing on the elevons?

Tony

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

I removed the backing from the top of the wing, and the top of the fuselage. The "Sharpie" and "Marks-A-Lot" permanent markers I used worked fine on both surfaces.

Tony,

It flies ok with elevons only, except when slow and nose high...that's when they become rather ineffective. It turns well enough with rudder and no (aileron) input, but it sure is nice to have rudder AND aileron when you need them. :)

Gary

[CalmAir]

Thanks again Gary,

Sorry to get so analytical on you, but I'm kinda that way. First time to mess with the Blu-Cor for me. Thats what I did last night. Pulled it off the top fuse and took some paint pens to it. Figured I would do the same to the top of the wing for graphics and easier mounting of components and glueing on the top fuse. I will use your #1 screwdriver trick for glueing the bottom fuse.

The LHS no longer carries carbon fiber:eek: I'll have to have a talk with them about that. I am going to use a small dowel, which will work fine, but will be a little heavier.

I have never had much luck with the over and under method of taping hinges, so I just cut 30 degree bevels in each surface and applied one piece of packing tape. Worked great.

I have been keeping tabs on your other posts. Seems like the JAR is generating interest.:)

Dale

[t-turley]

Originally posted by CalmAir
I have been keeping tabs on your other posts. Seems like the JAR is generating interest.:) Indeed it is, Dale. :D I see so many airplanes I like - and want - but Gary's airplanes are particularly innovative. I've been holding out on starting any more projects - I'm in the middle of refinishing all of the cabinets in the house - but I do need to relax every now and then. Gary's JAR, and Glenn's Albatross (gpw on the "other" Zone :rolleyes: ) both have caught my eye. I'm thinking that a cross between the two might be what I need to practice hovering in the front yard, and keep my thumbs limber. What say you, Gary? My front yard is roughly 50' x 80', surrounded by tall trees, with a maple tree planted beside the driveway.I've never been a high-end aerobatics guy, even though I've been flying over 20 years. Maybe I can amaze my neighbors by learning to do a rolling circle around the maple. :D

Tony

[CalmAir]

Hey Tony,

Be sure and grab a video when you start doing that. If I could perform rolling circles around my maple, I don't know if it would amaze the neighbors or confirm what they already suspect:)

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Tony,

Sounds good. Go for it! 50 X 80, you say? Why, that's almost the size of a gymnasium! Plenty of room! AFTER you get used to the airplane. :D

Dale,

My neighbors just shake their heads when I'm out flying in my front yard. Probably thinking... "Stupid old man, get a life". The joke's on them, though. ;)

Gary

[t-turley]

Gary,

Get a life, indeed! This IS the life! Very few things more relaxing - to me, anyway - than a good session with a couple of RC planes. I've told my wife our retirement home will have "model flying room" around it. If the Good Lord allows me to live that long, I plan to live out my retirement years sitting on my covered porch, sipping iced tea or lemonade, playing my guitar, and watching the grandkids cut my grass! Interrupted every once in a while by a session of flying from the porch, or the occasional trip to the local fishing hole. :D

Tony

[Dave Robelen]

Hi Gary,
Your "retirement plan" sounds pretty good. Especially that trip to the fishing hole. The way your buildng and flying is coming, There may be a day when you can hover one of those blue foam machines over the fishin' hole with a baited hook attached. How you handle the machine when you snag oe should be a real test of man and machine. Imagine seeing one of those JAR's disapear under the surface attached to a nice whopper. Dreams are fun, huh?
Regards, Dave

[Sr71fan]

And, maybe, an occasional trip to the gym, for a long workout?

:D

Gary

[CalmAir]

Hi Gary,

I like your idea of a workout in the gym!

Just got done installing the motor mount. The structure is together, horns installed, motor mount installed, so all thats left now is the radio gear.

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Standing by for pictures and a flight test report! :mad: :D

Gary

[CalmAir]

Okay Gary,

Here is a sneek preview photo before radio installation.

Dale

[t-turley]

Dale,

I think your elevons need to be bigger. ;)

Tony

[t-turley]

You guys have all been killing me with these great looking, great flying home-brew planes! Needing a break from my cabinet refinishing task, I grabbed a sheet of black foam core and went to town the last couple of evenings. The results so far you see in the pic. I took Glen Weber's Albatross (gpw from the "other" Zone), and scaled it to 130%. Then I added a sub-fuselage and fin like Gary's JAR. The full size top/bottom rudder, again like JAR, isn't shown in the photo. The black foam board has a nice consistency, and is very light - 2/3 of the weight of the stock board is the paper!! I don't know if they changed the adhesive they use, but the paper from my first black foamie peeled away easily - and the board was dry. This foamboard was a real pain to peel, even wet; I rubbed so much I ended up with a bloody blister on my middle finger! :(

I plan to power it with a 6:1 geared Orion Elite Micro, 3 ET 700 lipos, and an APC 10x4.7 SF. Vroom, vroom!! Unlike you guys, however, I work slowly, so it will probably be a couple of weeks before it's finished.

Oh, yeah: my warped mind came up with the name "Albatrossity" for this bird. :o

Tony

[CalmAir]

So you like those elevons eh Tony/:p

I used Gary's dimensions. I would have thought they were too large, but my son made a pizza box flyer about the same size. He had 3" chord elevons and could not counter the torque of the motor while trying to hover.

Your black Albatrossity looks good to me. What is the wingspan on that rascal?

Glad you took a break from your cabinets. Now I don't have to feel like the only one who is not getting certain chores done:D

See what you've gone and done Gary?

Dale

[t-turley]

Dale,

The span is 24", and the length will be about the same once the rudder is added.

Tony

[t-turley]

I've never used F3, so I don't know how it compares to black foam core. While being very light, the black foam is also somewhat flexible, hence the 1/8 x 3/16 hard balsa spines, which impart quite a bit of rigidity with negligible weight gain. The glue I'm using is Liquid Nails Perfect Glue 1 (http://www.perfectglue.com/glbTST_n/NUSPFG/theglues/nusPFG_PerfectGlue1.jsp), from Home Depot. It has a very tenacious grip, and sets in about an hour.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Hi Tony,

I've never worked with that stuff either, but have seen some aircraft made from it. It looks like it is easy to work with as far as cutting and glueing.

I read up on the glue you are using. Have not seen that before either. How do you think the weight compares to epoxy?

Well, my JAR is ready and I started setting control throws. I am going to have to rework the control rods to the elevons. I used some DuBro rods and sleeving. I glued the sleeving at both ends down against the wing, but doing that with those massive elevons is making the servos groan their little guts out. So I am in the process of cutting the sleeving loose and placing some small foam spacers under them to keep the rod parallel from the arms to the horns. Hopefully this extra leverage will help. Don't want to be replacing servo gears. I should get a test hop on it this evening, weather permitting.

Dale

[CalmAir]

Placing the supports under the rod to keep it parallel helped a little, but the servos are still taking a good load, especially when some air starts flowing over them. I'm not sure how much control throw Gary is using, so I used standard length horns. There is a lot of weight hanging behind those.

I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Dale

[CalmAir]

Tony,

Be sure and give yourself plenty of elevon throw capability. You can always dial it down. My Mister Bones delta wing needed more than I thought it would, and so does the JAR.

I flew it last night, although the wind never dropped below 8mph, so it was not a good evening to feel it out. First thing I noticed is that I did not have enough throw. I had set my radio for 70%, which looked like plenty, but I could not turn right. Left was fine due to the torque from the motor. My rolls were also too slow.

I will give a flight report when I can feel it out in better conditions, and get my elevon throws dialed in. I also have several prop combos to try out on it. The rudder on this thing is very effective. Can't wait to try it out in calm conditions, hopefully this evening. With the rudder and elevon combo I should be able to pull off some trick manuevers.

Dale

[t-turley]

Dale,

I'm not sure how the Liquid Nails glue compares to epoxy since I haven't done a direct comparison, but it cleans up with water, is waterproof when cured, and is not brittle like epoxy. I like it so far. We'll see how it holds the first time I plant Albatrossity in the maple tree in the front yard. :D I hope after 20+ years of flying I can learn to hover!

Tony

[CalmAir]

Okay Tony,

I'll be looking forward to the report. Hey, your not supposed to plant it in the maple.....rolling circles around the maple ;)

Dale

[t-turley]

I only have one transmitter capable of mixing, and both of its receivers are tied up in other planes, so I sprung for a GWS micro mixer. Compare its size to the penny. <$21 WITH shipping from www.aeromicro.com . This will go on Albatrossity with a GWS R4P receiver.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Thats a tiny little mixer. If your GWS recevier was crystaled on the same freq as that transmitter you should not need the external mixer.

[t-turley]

Dale,

Unfortunately, all of my GWS receivers are FM, and the one mixing Tx I have is AM.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Ahhh..I see. Well that mixer does not look like it's going to add much weight. The wires probably weigh more than the circuit board. I am wind watching, but it does not seem like it's going to give it up. Always seems to happen when I have a new plane ready.

[Sr71fan]

Those are great little mixers! I use one to mix rudder and throttle on my Vector for differential thrust. Woohoo!

Gary

[t-turley]

Can't beat the price either, Gary. One can buy at least 5 of them for the cost of an FM transmitter with mixing capability.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Well Tony,

Seems as though it was not just my throw range that was giving me problems. Closer inspection revealed that the servos had both swiveled about 15 degrees on the servo tape and the rods had also slid in the EZ connectors. It's a wonder I landed safely.

Guess in addition to the servo tape I will strap the servos down with packing tape. See if that will hold them in place. Lots O' Force on those babies.

Dale

[t-turley]

Dale,

I'm going to wrap my servos with a couple layers of clear packaging tape, and glue them in place with the Liquid Nails Perfect Glue. That way, if I ever need to remove them, I can just slit the tape and peel it away. BTW, I was able to sneak in a little more progress after putting another coat of primer on some cabinet doors.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Tony,

Yes, I can see that you have been making progress. It's starting to come together. Your idea for the servos should be fine if that glue will stick to the slick side of the packing tape.

Gary,

I flew the JAR twice tonight. It is fun, but it does not last very long for me. With my JR radio and 2/3 AA pack I came in heavy at 12.5 ounces. Have to keep the throttle up and the battery does not last very long like that. A Merlin 12" prop and the GWS 11x8 prop seem to work the best on the EPS300C "C" drive. Of course it will not hover at this weight, but it does hang for a couple of seconds and then starts down backwards, which is challenging to get out of. Cruises pretty fast with the 11x8 prop.

Even with the packing tape the servos would move slightly and change the elevons in flight, so I was constantly re-trimming for that. I flew a circle inverted, but it kept slowly loosing altitude. I have plenty of throw. I had to fly in a different field tonight and it has trees. Guess where I landed? Inverted right into a little 12 foot high tree! Dang, thats twice I wrecked in two weeks. I am starting to think I'm losing it. Broke the rudder horn off. I'll fix it and let my son try it.

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Dale,

Dang that weight! I haven't had any trouble with my servos moving about on the wing. Guess I found better tape than yours. You could always put a dab of epoxy on two corners of the servo. It breaks off easily should you want to remove it. May I suggest an 11/4.7 GWS prop? It works great on my Four Fin FanFold ship, which has a C drive. Must we change your name to "Woody"? :D Sorry.. couldn't resist.

Gary

[CalmAir]

Hey Gary,

Yes, the 11x4.7 would probably fit the bill very nicely. I don't have one on hand, but will probably get one from the LHS on my next trip. I did try a 10x4.7. Lots of thrust but not enough speed.

I was calling myself some choice words yesterday. I met up with my brother this evening and flew 4 of my planes without any close calls or carnage. Thats more like it! The JAR was not ready so I took the Zero in it's place.

Dale

[t-turley]

Allow me to introduce you guys to Minitrossity, a "scale model" that I used to find the CG of Albatrossity. I just tossed it around the front yard, adding clay to the nose until it glided flat and stable. I was able to "fly" it as far as 75-80 feet. It has a nice, flat glide with a gentle right turn. I guess one of the wings has a little more reflex than the other.

Hmmmmm....I bet with the right combo of micro radio gear, 145 lipolys and an IPS direct drive......

Tony

[Sr71fan]

Tony,

COOL!!!! What's your all-up weight? :D

Gary

[t-turley]

About 230 pou....oh, you mean the model! :D

Tony

[t-turley]

Elevon servos and linkages operational.

[t-turley]

If the dual stack rewound CD-ROM motor on the left doesn't work out, I'll use the 6:1 Orion Elite Micro on the right. I rewound the CD-ROM motor for more torque, and I'm hoping it will swing an 8" SF prop with <6A current.

Tony

[CalmAir]

Hey Tony,

Your making a lot of progress considering your working with the cabinets too. I will be curious to know how the rewound cd motor works out.

I cut the lower fuselage and lower rudder off of the JAR, and I am re-mounting the servos where they will not move. I'll let you know how it works out, but right now I am in the middle of painting a bedroom..Uhggg.

Dale

[t-turley]

Just a wee bit more progress between coats of paint. I also received the magnets for the motor bell housing today - and I just ordered them on Friday. WOW! These are the best magnets available for rebuilding these motors, and are extremely strong. I told my wife they were coming, and if she picked up a small package for me, not to lay it near any watches, calculators, computers, or debit cards!!

Tony

PS: The weekend got even better when I sold my last "big" e-motor, a geared cobalt 035, on eBay. That gives me some extra $$$ to buy a servo, some props, and some more ET lipos. :D

[Sr71fan]

Tony,

Lookin' GOOD! Anxious to hear the flight reports.

Gary

[t-turley]

I just came in from tossing Albatrossity around my back yard. The plane flies with a very easy underhand toss. My back yard is not really big enough for RC flying, and I picked Albatrossity out of the branches a few times, but what a hoot!!

I ended up using the Orio Elite Micro, geared 6:1, with an APC 10x7 SF prop and 2 ET 1200s. Full house control with elevons and rudder. Flying weight is 9.3 oz. The plane has plenty of thrust, but is not fast - I'd say <20 mph, tops. It's hard to tell when you're dodging tall trees, though. To quote GJ: "FUN!".

Tony

[Sr71fan]

COOL!! :)

[t-turley]

I literally just got back from the flying field. On a hot, gusty afternoon, I got 3 long flights out of the ET 1200s, and had plenty of juice left for at least one more. This little bird is FUN! It will hover, although I'm not good enough yet to keep it there for long. On high rate, you better not blink when you ask for a roll! Loops are nice and tight, both inside and out. Even on low rates, the plane is quite responsive. The plane is too quick for me to try any in-flight photos, at least for now. It also handles gusty conditions better than most of my other park flyers.

Tony
:D:D:D

PS: I just noticed that I used an "Orio" motor on the previous post. That was supposed to be "Orion".:o

[CalmAir]

Hey Tony, that is great news! I'm glad you are happy with the flight performance. Does the black color give you any wierd effects or is it easy to see the oreintation?

We'll wait on the in flight pics. For now, keep your hands on the sticks:D . Good Job.

Dale

[Sr71fan]

Way to go, Tony! Very glad it's working for you! :)

Dale, Your turn! :D Now that you're done painting the bedroom, I hope.

Gary

[t-turley]

Dale,

The black color does cause some orientation problems; I had to stay really focused to keep my brain oriented with the plane. I think I'm going to need some white on the bottom.

Tony