Brushless in Touring Car

[HYPA]

I have just bought a Tamiya TRF414M World Champion Replica and I am trying to decide on electronics. I was wondering if the Novak Brushless system with 6 cells would be a good choice for power and efficiency. What do you all think?

[Lapster]

I saw a TA04 with a Novak SS and he was the fastest guy on the track. All of the low turn mods were getting beat. Also, novak is a very reliable company and has great customer service. If you had any questions they would get answered.

[HYPA]

Will the Brushless System put a lot of pressure on the cars drivetrain? Also what cells would be best to use with the Brushless System?

[Lapster]

It is about the same a 10 turn mod.....

You should buy the best batteries your money can get.

[FSU427P]

the 414m was designed to take a lot of mod motor punishment, and as long as you take care of your drive train a brushless should not affect it any more than a 10t would.

[TXT Crazy]

That would be really cool, but that novak isnt the best brushless out there. If you go look through the TXT Thread there is a link to a certain company but I dont know what it is.

[FSU427P]

Hacker USA exclusively makes brushless motor systems. You can find them at www.hackerbrushless.com. Their system is supposed to supply twice the power of a normal mod motor. They say their motor pushes 60,000 rpm!!

[TXT Crazy]

HA 60000, http://www.rumrunnerhobbies.com/

[JeepsDaddy]

someone mentioned that the Novak BL is no harder on the drivetrain than a reg mod...

while i haven't destroyed a tranny or driveline yet... i would think the Novak will definately be somewhat harder.... it uses neo magnets (so do the Hackers), much more powerful than those used in reg mods...

sure, the top speed is about the same, but the torque is WAY more than a reg 10 turn mod.... and torque is what really tears gears, belts, ect up.... when i'm driving my TC3 with the Novak BL, i do kinda worry i'm gonna destroy something in the driveline....

peace out... :)

[tc3punk]

for the most powerfull motors, Lehner (http://www.rumrunnerhobbies.com) ...

their basics are great in cars, and on 12cells, a 4200basic has more power than the dual-titan/evx setup that's stock in a maxx;)

[Bird_of_Fire]

I have a RS4 rally and I was thinking of doing the 7018/5300 on 6 cells combo as well. Will this thing eat belts, or what should I upgrade in preperation for the power? And lastly...what kind of speeds can I expect? :D

[captainoblivious]

Isn't 12 cells a little to much for the Lehner Basic 4200? Or did you mean the Lehner XL 4200?

You could also check out: http://www.finedesignrc.com/ for both Lehner and Hacker.

[tc3punk]

65,000 rpm on basics

4200 basic:
12x1.2=14.4
14.4x4200=60,480rpm

5300 basic:
10x1.2=12.0
12.0x5300=63,600

and if you know how tight the belts are supposed to run, it shouldn't be a problem

for speed, kufman's tc3 with 4200 on 10 cells:

right click save as on "kufer2" (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/tom.clunk@sbcglobal.net/lst?.dir=/RC/Videos/Brushless&.order=&.view=l&.src=bc&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/) :p

[HYPA]

My next question. Will the Novak Speed Control fit in a TRF414M as there is very limited space for electronics. Also how will the system go using 6 3300's?

[krisI.925]

I have a BL system in my TXT-1. It works pretty and definatly worth every penny. But I think you should go with the Novak systems and not the lehner or hacker. The Novak systems are sensored and are designed for touring car aplications. The power is more controllable and more responsive. While on all other brands such and lehner and hacker those motors are sensorless and they wont work as well in a touring car as a Novak system will. The Novak is a little more expensive but I think it would be worth it. Also on 6 cells the Novak is faster than most other BL systems. Others require at least 8 cells to get desent power.

[captainoblivious]

tc3punk - I looked it up right after I made that post. You were right, I just had not seen/heard of anyone running more the 8 cells on one of the Lehner Basics.

[WhaDL]

HYPA,

The Novak has a lot of advantages over most of the other BL's out there if you want to use it for racing. Here's my list of reasons:

#1 - Support. Lots of people are having trouble with support from Lehner and Schulze. In some cases, they've taken up to three months to return parts. One month is about the best you can hope for. And they often blame the problem on the customer and don't give you any deal for a replacement.

#2 - Motor maintenance. The Lehner Basic motor, which is popular and about the only other BL that is reasonably priced, has a sealed can. You can't remove or replace the bearings on your own.

#3 - Controller switch. Most of the other BL's do not have a switch, which is almost mandatory for racing.

#4 - BEC. Most of the other BL's have a lousy BEC, so you have to run a RX pack to avoid cogging.

#4 - Packaging. The Novak is packaged like a normal brushed speedo. All the others are either gigantic (Hacker or Aveox) or have the wires coming out horizontally with just shrink wrap around the electronics.

#5 - Wire replacement. It is very easy to replace the wires on the Novak - all the way from the speedo to the motor. Not so with many of the others.

#6 - Price. The best price I've seen on a Novak is $230. Best price I've seen on the cheapest Lehner setup is also $230. Pretty much nothing else is even below $400. And you can probably buy the Novak from your local track, which will go a long way toward encouraging your track's owner to let you race a BL there.

Bottom line, the Novak was designed for 1/10 scale racing. Might do 12th OK as well. If you want a screaming fast motor that'll pull wheelies for you down your street, then some of the other BL's will be better for you. But if you want a clean, reliable, supported system that is designed for long-term maintenance from steady racing, then the Novak is pretty hard to beat.

[randomletterz]

mmm about that...

brushless mean no motor matenince. novak is a noob BL for people who "like" to take the can off of the motor and check it out. and btw, you can do that witht he basics but its not recomended. novak is also a pretty weak BL motor. 196 watts. that blows away any brushed but my lehner is clockin in at 700+.

[WheelNut]

Oh yeah thats 700W at over 50amps! And on 14 cells! So even at 50amps on 6cells the most power you will get is 360W. And at 50A your batteries will be toast really fast! So really Lehner's power numbers are completely irrelevant to most all RC car set-ups, besides highly modifided E-maxx's.

The Novak is rated at 6cells. And pulls about 27A.

Also Novak is supposed to be releasing a higher power non-racing version of the SS sometime within the year. I'm hoping it will be a killer of low turn motor and can handle a high number fo cells.

[WhaDL]

I would not discount the value of being able to remove and replace the bearings. They will get dirty and they will wear out. And on the Novak they are sealed much better than on the Lehner. The one bearing is virtually 100% sealed, while the other is sealed almost as good as you can get for a shaft-side bearing.

Some people will even argue that the lack of bearings on a stock motor is an advantage because they don't have to be cleaned like a mod's bearings. So bearing maintenance is definitely an issue I would not ignore.

The Lehner, on the other hand, has the bearings out in the open. They'll get dirty very fast. You can glue a cap or something over them to extend their life, but Novak's already taken care of that for you.

And given Lehner's tendency to claim the user is responsibile for most failures, I would be very leery about attempting to remove the bearings yourself. It will definitely void your warranty, and could easily damage the motor in the process. Lehner doesn't recommend it for a reason.

[randomletterz]

you can send in your motor to lehner and they will completely rebuild your motor for 25 bucks. and that is only NESISARY after MANY MANY MANY hours of use.

[Drayken S4S]

Just a hint for protecting the bearing. Someone posted before: On the back side bearing, you can glue a shock bladder, and it makes a perfect cover.

The inside bearing should not get dirt in it, unless you don't run with a cover.

If I am not mistaken, even the low estimate on the BL motor bearings is around 10,000 hrs of useful life, before needing replaced. I know that seems high, but I could swear it is 10,000. That would give you 3 hrs of running, EVERY day, for the next 9 years, plus some. I am sure you will be in the market for a new motor before then, lol.

This is a direct quote from Aveox.com:
"The only wearing parts are two sealed ball bearings which have a rated life of 30,000 hours."

[randomletterz]

thank you drayken. OWNED!!

[WhaDL]

I've got a Lehner Basic 4200 as well as the Novak, and the Lehner's bearings get dirty pretty quick. I'd say it would be nice to be able to remove them and clean them out once a month or so. After a month of running mine, you could hear the grim in them when you turned the shaft and held the motor to your ear. Exposed bearings get dirty, even ones that are so-called sealed. Seals on the bearings themselves can only keep out so much dirt.

That said, you can do a lot to make them last longer by covering them. I hadn't heard about the shock bladder, but that sounds like a good idea. But you do also need to cover the inside bearing. The spur gear cover will definitely not help much. Just look at your spur gear.

What I did was take the cap off a small tube of glue. I found that the small tube of MonkeyGrip rubber cement for repairing bicycle tires had a cap of almost the perfect size. If fit so well that it actually would snap onto the outside of the bearing. Then I drilled a hole in another cap, and ground down the end to shorten it. This made a pretty nice cover for the inside bearing. My bearings now stay a whole lot cleaner.

But even with covers, the bearings will get dirty. Looks to me like dirt can enter the inside of the motor through the opening of where the wires go in. Might not be a bad idea to put some Shoe Goo there as well to seal that up.

But the Novak is nice because you don't have to worry about this as much. The bearings are sealed better to begin with, there are no openings into the motor and you can remove them when necessary for cleaning and repairing. And you can do it yourself, without having to send them back to Germany and waiting a month or more.

[Drayken S4S]

Sorry, guess i am too used to a maxx, and the clean bearings and trans cover, lol. I have never had problems with bearings.

Anyway, If you are willing to spend a few extra bucks, I don't know why anyone hasn't suggested a 1920/6 motor. It has 5225rpms/volt, so it is almost identical to the 5300, but will be faster than it, and still cooler than a 4200. It will also be more efficient at partial loads (getting on and off the throttle). The solid magnet motors are not as efficient, besides at full throttle.

[krisI.925]

i dont have any problems with the bearings in my motor. And all the other 32 bearings in my truck will get dirty and wear out before the ones in my motor do.